Fish Math-Utah Lake

Utah Fishing Reports & Discussion Utah Fishing General
1

if what they say is true that the bio-mass of Utah Lake is 90% carp then 9/10 lbs of fish is a carp…

so if there are, as has been estimated, 8 million carp in Utah lake at an average of 5lbs a fish there are only 4 million pounds of other fish in the lake…between catfish, smallmouth, perch, bluegill, crappie, largemouth, chubs, suckers, and walleye…I wonder what the population of each species in the lake is, it can’t be all the great for each…and what it will be once the removal project is complete. I am cautiously optimistic that the removal, even if it doesn’t reach the numbers it has aimed for, will greatly increase quality and quantity in the remaining game fish.

2

I’m curious to see just how effective that Removal Project will be- I mean, will it really make a significant ‘dent’ in the Carp population…enough to make a difference?

I’m hoping so.

3

Good question. Where did you get this info. from? I’d like to read it. I’ve often wondered how much game fish is found in the lake. Since they’ve quantified it, it could help determine a little better how many fish there are in the lake.

My opinion is with the carp removal that it’ll only take a short time for the carp to get their numbers back up, they’re not like a human where they only have 1-2 offspring, its more like hundreds of hatchlings if not thousands per female. Maybe they need to invent a “fish and feed” where it’ll kill the carp but not any of the other fish. Though I wouldn’t mind if they killed off the mud cats too (don’t be offended anyone)[:p]

4

:sunglasses:**The figure of 90% of the biomass is obviously only a guesstimate…not an actual measurement by weight. It is largely based upon the results of thousands of seine hauls around the lake during different times of the year and estimating total weights and numbers of all species. **

Also, the spread can and does vary on a yearly basis…depending on water levels, spawning successes, food resources, etc. Again, just a number and a place to begin the war.

The first contracted 5 million pounds of carp has been trucked out of Utah Lake. Hard to say whether it has made much of a dent at this point. The goal is to keep removing as many carp as possible…for as long as it takes…to reach the “tipping point”…where natural dieoffs and predation will keep the carp numbers somewhat stable in comparison to the other species.

There is no doubt that each female carp removed from Utah Lake effectively removes hundreds of thousands of potential replacements. This is a picture of the egg mass from just one “average” sized carp. By comparison most of the more “desirable” species only produce a few hundred to a few thousand eggs each year…whereas there are likely several hundred thousand in those egg sacs.

[inline “CARP CAESAREAN.jpg”]

As a long time champion of Utah Lake, I have personally observed something interesting. The average size and condition of the carp in Utah Lake has declined somewhat in recent years. They are suffering from their own overpopulation problem. The average length is shorter and the general body condition is typically a bit skinnier than in previous years. But they do not seem to be in any danger of extinction…by our hand or their fins.

5

How many more years do they plan to continue the removal process?

Hope the funding for it doesn’t go sour. Would love to see them keep at it for many years to come.

6

:sunglasses:Their goal is to reduce the overall carp population by about 75%. Original estimates were that it would take at least 6 years. I think that is optimistic. But the good news is that if they are able to maintain the quota of at least 5 million pounds a year there should be an increasing decline and noticeable benefits even sooner.

For those who have not seen it before, the June Sucker Recovery Program produced a video and posted it on Utube that shows a lot of the details of how they are removing the carp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6u7r0dbw1I

7

Thanks for posting that link. Very informative and makes me have hope that they will reach their goals.

8

:sunglasses:**You are not alone in experiencing exceptional fishing this year. It actually started a couple of years ago and has been getting better. **

I don’t think it is entirely the result of the carp removal process. Utah Lake, like most lakes, goes through cycles of ups and downs…with varying water levels, spawning successes, and all the other things that contribute to healthy fish populations.

The abundance of “cookie cutter” cats are the result of a good spawn about 3 years ago. Ditto for the abundance of 20" walleyes. And there are a lot of bigger walleyes from the year or two before that, but most folks don’t catch many of the bigger ones. They eat bigger food and often after dark.

Strangely enough, you can partially give credit to the carp for some of the healthy predator population. The carp have produced heavy spawns the past few years. That means a lot of carplets that are a welcome part of the food chain for most species. The only problem is that they grow fast and by fall they are too big for all but the biggest walleyes and catfish. And those that survive the gauntlet of predators grow into bigger carp that need to be removed by the netting. Catch 22…or 22 million. Whatever.

9

So does anyone know why thet don’t also put a slot limit on the predators to help get to the tipping point? Is there concern that the predators will indiscriminately remove June suckers also? Is this why they don’t add a few additional sterile predators?

I am just curious not critical!

10

Carp are like coyotes, skunks, racoons, you kill one and 50 more materialize from thin air. I hope they can be sucessfull down there. They really need to do something about them in the marsh, tiger muskies perhaps.

11

Every dent helps but they will never get control of the carp population in Utah Lake. Once the funding stops for Carp their numbers will boom again. It’s crazy to think they believe it will work. It looks good on paper, but paper and seeing the lake first hand makes you realize the carp population will always be a problem

12

:sunglasses:There is no doubt that the predators take a toll on the Junie juniors. That is why DWR has an egg taking setup and manually spawns as many Junies as they can each year. The young are raised (at considerable expense) until they are large enough to escape the greatest percentage of predators. But their annual plantings are still referred to by us Utah Lake anglers as the DWR walleye feeding program. Many of the walleyes taken within a few days of the plantings have fingerling Junies in their bulging tummies. They don’t all make it.

On the other hand, carp are responsible for the complete destruction of all the aquatic vegetation needed as nursery habitat for young Junies. They use the aquatic growth not only as shelter from predators but as a food source…where various aquatic invertebrates propagate as a their local grocery store. They also destroy vast areas of marsh vegetation needed by various waterfowl and migratory birds.

**Carp are the beginning and end of the downward spiral of the June suckers. They raid nests and eat both the eggs and fry of the Junies. Then they destroy the shelter and food sources so the fry have nothing to eat and no place to hide from the predators. Gotta give the little tykes at least a fighting chance. If they have some shelter and enough food they can maintain a population. **

**Sure, it would be better if there were no predators. **
In the days before carp, walleyes, catfish, bass and other predators there were gazillions of cutthroat trout. Guess what they ate? But with better spawning and nursery habitat for the Junies they were able to stand a lot of predation.

Sterile predators are not a solution. Ask the Wyoming sheep ranchers who continuously fight the coyote problem. At a recent meeting of ranchers and environmentalists it was suggested by a well-meaning but snooty old gal that instead of shooting coyotes from helicopters they should live trap them and neuter them. One of the raunchy old sheep guys stood up and said “Hey lady, the coyotes are eating my sheep. They ain’t (mating with) them.”

13

I wonder if the “mating with” word he really used rhymed with trucking?

14

I saw a guy fishing a tournament on Clear Lake in California fishing a 9 to 11 inch swimbait (looked like a carp to me) and hooking into 4 lb largemouth and bigger, I was shocked at how big of a bait a largemouth will bite in relation to their own mass.

:sunglasses:No doubt about it. Largies can and will eat carp. But in Utah Lake they have a big menu of small fishies…and crawdads. In most cases they will opt for a bite-size bluegill or a molting crawdad. Both hang out in the same areas the bass use to set up housekeeping.

The other consideration is that there is such a small number of largemouths, in comparison to carp, that they cannot possibly be a major player in carp reduction. The net output from one spawning female carp would overfeed the existing bass population.

15

:sunglasses:I wasn’t there. Dunno. Second hand info.

16

AFdude, that’s just it…I think it “can” work; **as long as the funding is available. **

Therein lies the problem.

Will all this effort- this blood, sweat, and tears (and mega bucks) really be worth it say,10 years from now?

We can only hope.

17

I read from a Utah Lake info .pdf thingy on line that the walleye population was at around175,000. Not bad considering all the carp. I think it said that the white bass numbers were at 300,000 depending on the year. More than that actually. Catfish I forgot what it said.

There are small numbers of golden shiner too. Utah suckers are rare. But I use catch them in the Jordan River where it is legal to keep them, but its huge waste of time, carp make better bait.

there use to be lake trout in utah lake that got up to 50 pounds but they were fished to extinction.

I got this online:

The most dominant fish are carp
with a total percentage of 66.2%, followed by white bass at 26.7%, walleye at 2.0%, black bullhead
at 1.4%, channel catfish at 0.8%, largemouth bass at 0.1%, bluegill at 0.3%, fathead minnow at
1.6%, Utah sucker at 0.4%, June sucker at 0.4%, and less than 0.1% of black crappie, golden
shiner, brown trout, rainbow trout, green sunfish, and redside shiner (Central Utah Water
Conservancy District, 2004c).

According to this report the channel catfish population has considerably declined since the 1960. Bummer.

18

I’ve been debating whether to jump into this thread or not, but I guess I will. Some of you guys are likely tired of hearing from me on this issue and maybe I’m tired myself. Anyway here goes. Some of the information is derived from the recent Utah fish forum (UFF), others from other sources.

  1. RE" so if there are, as has been estimated, 8 million carp in Utah lake at an average of 5lbs a fish there are only 4 million pounds of other fish in the lake…between catfish, smallmouth, perch, bluegill, crappie, largemouth, chubs, suckers, and walleye…"

This was the upper estimate. However, in the recent UFF, Mr. Loy shared that the average size of the carp has gone down during the past year or two. This could mean that the harvest is already having an effect. It could also mean that even if the carp population is only down a little, the total lake biomass has been increased for the other species.

  1. RE “and what it will be once the removal project is complete. I am cautiously optimistic that the removal, even if it doesn’t reach the numbers it has aimed for, will greatly increase quality and quantity in the remaining game fish.”

For the first time, I heard a UL biologist at the UFF say that they now think that a lot of the biomass that will replace carp is channel cats. It may be no coincidence that channel cat numbers are currently at historically strong numbers right now. So are other species too. (Go back and read the recent UFF thread for further info) We do not yet know if the carp removal is the cause or if (more likely at this point) it is the high water, but the possibilities are intruiging. No one though can say for sure at this point what is going to happen to other populations as the carp removal progresses.

  1. RE "How many more years do they plan to continue the removal process? "

The original plan was for 7 years, depending on success. The recent UFF discussed allowing some funding to reach the Loys via the harvest of bycatch of white bas bullheads and small channel cats. This would allow some offset of the costs. It sounds like the funding is OK for the time being, but who knows with the Government.

  1. RE" AFdude, that’s just it…I think it “can” work; **as long as the funding is available. **

Therein lies the problem.

Will all this effort- this blood, sweat, and tears (and mega bucks) really be worth it say,10 years from now?

We can only hope. "

Funding is always a worry. However, many of the projects and “bolld,sweat and tears” are done and will now pay dividends. The Hobble creek project is an example. Besides now having a spawning run of June suckers, it now has nice habitat for sport species. That will be a benefit for years to come, even if funding stopped tomorrow.

  1. RE"It’s crazy to think they believe it will work. It looks good on paper, but paper and seeing the lake first hand makes you realize the carp population will always be a problem"

They realize that there will need to be some future remedial carp harvest once they reach goals. However, the hope is that the effort needed will be far less. The biologists know what they are dealing with and the difficulty of the task. They DO know the lake as well as you or I do.

  1. RE"According to this report the channel catfish population has considerably declined since the 1960. Bummer.

    This is old data. The current channel cat population is extremely strong right now. The crappie population has also exploded compared to the 2004 report cited.
19

Their goal is to reduce the overall carp population by about 75%.

June suckers! June suckers! June suckers! Hoa!
June suckers! June suckers! There you go!
June suckers! June suckers! June suckers! Hoa!
June suckers! June suckers! Carp must go!

Carp don’t belong in Utah Lake!
June suckers are native to the lake!

They fed the Utes they fed the trout!
Carp carp carp! Get them the !&#@$ out!:laughing:

20

…in the recent UFF, Mr. Loy shared that the average size of the carp has gone down during the past year or two. This could mean that the harvest is already having an effect. It could also mean that even if the carp population is only down a little, the total lake biomass has been increased for the other species.

“This could mean that the harvest is already having an effect.”

Help me with your logic here. If the carp were stunted because there were so many of them then wouldn’t the remaining carp begin to get larger as the population decreases from netting?