RE"Help me with your logic here. If the carp were stunted because there were so many of them then wouldn’t the remaining carp begin to get larger as the population decreases from netting? "
Or it means that the carp harvest is putting a dent in the bigger, mature carp numbers and what remains is increasingly the smaller, younger ones? Whether the carp are currently truly “stunted” in the conventional sense is something that is open to some debate and considering the abundance of current ideal carp habitat out there, I kinda doubt it.
I plan to do my part in keeping carp numbers down with a bow and a pointy stick! Bunnies used to be plentiful in this area, but due to hunting (I did my part) they are few and far between. Carp hunting on Utah lake is more popular every year and due to it’s proximity to people I doubt it will lose much in the way of a following. Might not remove 5mil pounds of fish every year but the bow hunters do make an increasingly big dent every year
“Would this be because they net in areas that the larger carp inhabit? Do carp school by size? Any other ideas?”
As you no doubt suspect, there is no way for the netting folks to know what…if anything…is in a given area that they target for netting. Purely random…but based on past successes.
**I have observed both boat and ice netting and I can verify that there is a wide range of both species and sizes among the various species captured. **
Carp do not school by size. In fact, they really do not school much at all except in the winter. Most of the year they roam around individually or in small scattered groups. When they spread the nets it is over a wide area and gathers up whatever is within that area.
I will also add that I have observed far fewer carp over the “average” five pound mark in the last couple of years. I have seen, shot and hooked a few that might approach 10 pounds. But they are much smaller on average than even 5 years ago when I shot quite a few over 10 pounds during the spring fling. Also…many of the carp I have “harvested” this year have been surprisingly skinny. A couple I kept to fillet for bait hardly had enough flesh to make the effort worthwhile.
What is the reason? Hard to say from a non-biologist viewpoint. As you suggested, harvesting significant numbers of carp should reduce the competition for food and INCREASE the size and health of the remaining carp. So the downsizing likely has nothing to do with the seining operations. Just a convenient excuse to try to rationalize what we don’t understand.
The true effects of the carp reduction program will not be truly noticeable for a while yet. There are visibly still plenty of carp in the lake. They are not yet an endangered species.
The upswing in numbers among the other species are more likely the result of several years of ideal high water conditions with the expected improvements in spawning habitat and increased food production.
**The ups and downs on all lakes in Utah are generally more attributable to the mood swings of Mama Nature than anything actually done…or not done…by humankind. With the exception of hatchery pets in small streams and ponds it is almost impossible for anglers to fish out any waters. But sudden changes in water chemistry, low water years, unexplained disease outbreaks and other natural occurences can wipe out a fishery very quickly…and take years of natural rebuilding to recover. **
But, humans are vain and like to think they are in control…and like to make excuses to supply answers for unanswerable questions.
RE"Would this be because they net in areas that the larger carp inhabit? Do carp school by size? Any other ideas?"
As you may know, it has been found that the carp congregate in huge schools every year around Lincoln beach and Goshen bay. As Pat said, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the biggest fish go there and smaller ones don’t, but I don’t think we positively know either. This carp behavior does allow for improved efficiency in the netting operations.
RE" **But, humans are vain and like to think they are in control…and like to make excuses to supply answers for unanswerable questions.
**Quite true, but then supplying answers to the unanswerable and unknowable is 97% of what we do here on these fishing forums, isn’t it? And we keep doing it too. [;)]
Problem with that analogy is that there is nothing eating the coyotes. If you have an elk or moose problem, bring in the wolves, they’ll take care of it. The good thing is that mature muskies would be able to eat the larger carp but with that you also get them eating everything else. I wonder if they have ever tried to create a carp specific disesase that could be passed from carp to carp eliminating them that way. Honestly though carp are the aquatic cocroaches they’ll never get rid of them all.
**Ah, but there is a carp-specific disease…Koi herpes. It has caused some massive carp dieoffs in some California waters. LINK TO ARTICLE And, according to all reports, it does not seem to affect other fish…or humans. **
When I first heard of it I immediately figured that Utah DWR would be all over it. Haven’ t heard a thing about any studies or plans to try it.
I’ll call california and get some good lookin herpied up carp, you call the dwr and see if we can get a permit to open up a carp cathouse. The way they breed they’ll all be dead in a year, problem solved.
Likely, no one is brave enough to take the lead because of the unknown impacts that may happen. In the good old days, they would not hesitate trying these natural cures, only to often find out the cure was worse than the original problem. The solution has sometimes become a major nuisance after it got rid of the original problem. Reminds me of the woman who swallowed a fly.
If the carp died off that fast and in those numbers the stink in Utah county would be unbelievable. People would think the waste treatment plant must have exploded and Kuni’s had come back.
After one of the youth fishing orientations we were talking with one of the DWR guys and he was explaining how they hoped to tip the carp population. He made the point if they can do it in the ocean to fish there had to be a number where it would happen in Utah lake.
You would think that something like that could be tested on a small scale in a private pond. Fill it with carp and other fish add herpies and see what happens. If it worked it would be a lot more effecient than netting, also netting dead floaters would be a lot easier than searching and sorting.
**I was not actually suggesting a rush to foolishness. Obviously something that deadly to one species might very well have negative outcomes on other species. Just might take longer to manifest it. **
No matter what DWR would like to do they are still closely under the thumb of the feds as long as the June suckers are part of the total equation. Ain’t nothin’ gonna be put in or taken out without a lot of research (tax dollars spent). And, in this case, that isn’t all bad.
I suspect that there are multiple research projects going on right now…all over the country…to see if that carp killer bug can be propagated and controlled. Utah is not the only state with a carp problem. But we are the only ones with Utah Lake.
Anybody who is really interested in this DNA virus disease can find tons of info on the net…by just plugging koi herpes into a search engine.
From what I have read it is a fast spreading contagious disease that can produce from 80 to 100 percent mortality. And the survivors carry the virus with them for the rest of their lives…to infect other fish.
**The writeups also mention that carp fry are more susceptible to catching the disease and fast mortality than are larger and older specimens. **
There really IS a lot of research going on and I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t eventually become a recognized and effective control for carp. Then it would be a problem to commercial fish operations that raise carp for food or fertilizer. It scares the heck out of some Asian and European carp growers.
Still wondering why they can’t or won’t use it to help control those wild Asian carp in the Mississippi River system.
And one more thing, don’t forget them lousy precious suckers are in the same minnow family, cyprinids, I think as carp. That koi herpes might take all of them out too hahaha. Then we would not have to worry about the sucker issues any more LOL. The disease would be forever in the lake and the suckers would never come back either. I’m in agreement with the high water. It’s the high water making the fishing soooo good for everything, not the carp removal LOL. They haven’t dented the carp any. I’m not in favor of letting them keep bycatch anything though hahaha. I think it should all go back for us sportfishers. I wanted to go to the fish forum but had time constraints this time around so looks like it’s decided.
Hard to say they haven’t dented the carp “any”. Even a small % of removal could have sizable impacts on the quality of the fishery.
I personally don’t mind them keeping some of the by-batch either especially if it is catfish. There are plenty of catfish in the lake and removing a chunk of them will only provide more food for all the other mouths. Plus if it keeps the netting crews from going under or if it prolongs their netting operation I’m all for it.
I wish they’d start netting carp from other lakes too - we are lucky that they are getting after it.
Actually they belong to diferent families. Carp are cyprinids but june suckers belong to the family Catostomidae. The closest they are related is at the Order level.
As you no doubt suspect, there is no way for the netting folks to know what…if anything…is in a given area that they target for netting. Purely random…but based on past successes.