Now you gone and did it…All the carp lovers are going to be mad at you for hurting the carp that way…[;)]
And if you did it in the name of research they mite sneak up on you and film it like they did U of Ut…[;)][sly]
I’m gonna send that video to my Mom and step dad in Arizona. My step dad would crap his…ooops I mean poo poo his pants when he sees all those carp.
Only thing is I will actually miss all those carp if they ever get rid of them completely. Not!
And another thing TubeDude you don’t need to stab those fish to “contribute” to the decline to the carp population.
A much more effective technique is to call the carp names and insults. Carp are so sensitive that they actually get depressed and even commit suicide. Its a fact Jack.
Call them the following names and insults:
On a scale of one to nine(the best is number one):
1.“Scaled loser!”
2. “Ugly sucker!”(that one kills them when you release them they feel unhappy then bury themselves in the Utah Lake mud.Also to add carp are racist! They really hate that one.)
3. You have a face that only a mother could love.
4. What happened to your scales? (Mirror carp are very touchy about that one.)
- Tell the carp you would like to use it as bait.
- Ask the carp when the last time it took a bath.
- Release the carp with a small infant article of clothing, and tie a ribbon around its head.
- Super glue dog fur if you have one or marabou feathers all over the carp. Release the carp. The carp laugh so hard when they see their own carpkind in a funny “costume”. When carp laugh hard they loose oxygen in their bloodstream and die.
- Tell the carp that all of the carp in Utah Lake are dying of an incurable disease. Carp are some of the most gullible fish you will ever know.
Well just to let you know so you don’t have to worry about blood guts and honor.
Hey I’m just bored and had a bit of a stressful day (wink)
I have the humor of a third grader. Sheesh!
I agree, I think that it will still be hard to make a significant change until they June suckers are gone and they can plant a lot of predators. The Loys can fish during daylight but Walleye/Pike/LM/Whitebass, would do it day and night. Its a tough deal with the Junies in there.
Do you honestly believe Utah Lake is lacking in predators and that more need to be planted?
Isn’t it against the rules to challenge users posts???
http://www.bigfishtackle.com/forum/Utah_Fishing_Forum_C55/Utah_Fishing_General_F58/gforum.cgi?post=501838;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread
I think thats what I was told two weeks ago… And yes, I think that more predators would take care of the carp. It would take a LOT of them but yes, I believe they would. Besides the walleys I dont believe there are major predators.
very intersting Pat, thanks for posting. I was out at the beach 2 weeks ago and was talking to a few asians and they said their was a monster walleye caught in one of the nets, close to 20lbs. they said. any word on this ??
later chuck
I’m guessing it was just after the 100 pound blue flathead cat they caught. Those net guys are always catching monsters of some kind.
Haven’t heard anything about a big walleye like that. And if I did I would not believe it unless it came from a source I trust.
I am sure there are walleyes over the state record in Utah Lake. Go ahead. You have my permission to catch one.
I think somebody has too much time on his hands and too vivid an imagination.
You been snorting smelly jelly again?
not to be the nay sayer here, but is there a “legal” disposal of the fish. Me and my brothers plan on helping as much as possible with some bow fishing this spring. hypothetically, if every fisher man caught and killed 3-5 fish a day, killed them and let them “swim away”. wouldn’t the lake be a stinky place to be with dead fish everywhere?
Would it be better to throw them on the shore for the birds, foxes and land dwelling varmits to eat them?
What’s the best thing to do with the darn things?
I heard several years ago in Idaho, there was a 5 cent bounty on carp, paid by the state, and there were some collection facility places. anyone rember that? i think they were selling/giving the fish to a cat food place or fertilizer place?
Anyway, what is the best, most acceptable, way to dispose of the slimers?
You might be surprised to hear that the white bass and the lowly mudcats are the major predators in Utah Lake (according to the research performed by the folks in charge of the carp eradication) and the walleye are minor players. Unfortunately, none of the predators (at least those currently in Utah Lake) except for perhaps the rare northern pike, can eat many of the carp because the carp grow so rapidly and get so large.
Re"Isn’t it against the rules to challenge users posts???" Don’t ban me Kent.[;)]
Re"I think that more predators would take care of the carp. It would take a LOT of them but yes, I believe they would. Besides the walleys I dont believe there are major predators."
First off, it is pretty much only a hypothetical exercise to talk about new fish introductions at UL because of the June suckers and the Endangered Species Act. And the Junies are actually not going to die out anytime soon. While the spawning runs haven’t been reestablished yet, artificial stocking has improved the numbers some in UL. So they aren’t going anywhere. Besides, as this video shows, we are having some success in recovery efforts of the lake.
Walleyes are predaceous enough, but channel catfish and white bass are very voracious as well. In fact, the JSRIP biologists are currently more worried about white bass competition and predation in regards to June sucker recovery than they are about the eyes. At a couple of Utah Lake Fish Forum meetings, information on the food web analysis of UL was presented. It showed that while several species will eat the little carp fry to a point, they grow quicly and basically exit the food web after a short time, thus locking up a lot of the lake biomass from the interactive food web the other fish contribute to. Only the biggest channel cats tend to eat very many mature carp. This is another reason they are so bad for the lake.
I assume that you mean Northern pike and/or tiger muskies when you say “more major predators”. Northerns have been tried in UL several times in the past and have failed. They never “took”. Also, I think you may be overestimating their abilities to eliminate carp. The numerous Northerns in Yuba have wonderfully controlled the carp in Yuba haven’t they. (not)
When the DWR holds the next ULFF meeting, you should try to attend. I think you and others would enjoy what is presented.
If not smelly jelly then some kind of bait.[:p] Definately someone with too much time on his hands to come up with all of that stuff.[:p]
Well, I said in my original post that I thought the video was cool. I have said on here in the past that I think that the removal is a GREAT thing. They are doing an awesome job down there. I also said that I know the June Sucker is not going anywhere and that this in impossible, for now.
Planting of predators does work. You just have to do it A LOT!! Think strawberry. How many times was it poisoned? And what are the Cutts doing in there now??
Your response on Yuba is laughable. When was the last time Pike were planted there??? Oh thats right, that was never. They were put in a reservoir miles away and finally made it there on there own many years later. Plus the water issues there have been favorable for carp recruitment and not for Pike.
What would happen if they stopped stocking Willard? Do you think the shad and carp would be totally out of control? You bet ya.
Those are my opinions. Here are some from the experts.
http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/ndwild/carp.html
“Biologists would like to see several changes in BowmanHaley Reservoir as numbers of carp are reduced. The establishment of submerged aquatic plants is essential in providing habitat for young game fish, reducing windcaused turbidity, and decreasing the severity of algae blooms. Because carp and other undesirable species are sure to reproduce more successfully following reductions in carp numbers, stocking of predator species is essential to control numbers of young carp. If predator populations can be increased and maintained, biologists may not need to intervene as often to preserve a desirable fish community.”
http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5015/00papers/baldry.htm
“Biological methods consist of using predatory fish”
I may have missed something but what exactly is your point?
http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/ndwild/carp.html
First, lets look at your posted article, which is a good one. It is a plan to restore a lake that is in a similar situation as UL. A few quotes from the intro of your article stand out.
" Their long lifespan (up to 15 years or more) and potential to reach a large size (up to 20 pounds or more) allow fish from strong year classes to grow steadily, rapidly at first, but more slowly later on as they become large and exceed natural limits of their food supply.
Eventually the reservoir is full of large, old carp whose reproductive success is poor, because the reservoir’s carrying capacity for carp is reached. Although few young carp are added to the population, the damage was done when the strong year classes were produced."
Does this sound familiar?
Then:
" They can grow rapidly, and **quickly reach a size too large for predation. This rapid growth permits a carp to live most of its 15 or more years without risk of predation. **The carp’s high fecundity (reproductive capacity) up to 2 million eggs in a 20-pound female and its adaptability to spawn in different situations gives it an edge over many native or preferred species. "
Then the article describes that the first line of carp removal was placing barriers to congregate carp during the spawn and treating the carp with rotenone. They then describe reducing numbers even further using drawdowns of the lake during spawning and rotenone bait stations. Only at the point when the carp population is low, yet the reproductive potential still present, does the paper describe using predation to keep the carp population low. (as you quoted yourself) However, predation was NOT used to initially drop the carp numbers in your paper.
This is basically also the JSRIP plan too. Once the aquatic vegetation is re-established, and there will be an expected spike in predatory fish species already there, whch hopefully will impact the very young carp fry and allow the other species (hopefully) to be able to compete better with the carp. The aquatic vegetation also will hopefully also allow the Junie fry to survive better naturally too.
A few more random points,
RE"Think strawberry. How many times was it poisoned? And what are the Cutts doing in there now?? "
Good example of a native (well, nearly native, Bear lake) fish introduced to control a prey species that co evolved with predatory cutts. (Utah chub) The match should work well. Additionally, when the cutts cannot eat fish, they can switch to smaller food sources and survive fine. I have caught a very large number of cutts up there this fall on my 3 trips and many of these were barfing up daphnia as I was unhooking them.
Contrast that to a system where there are too many predators, which is the common result of walleye or pike introductions in the West. All of the food is gobbled up and then crasho! Bad fishing for all species.
As for Yuba, besides being the poster lake for predator-prey crashes over the years, your own article explains what has happened there, you have a very large number of big carp that are simply too big for any predator, including pike to control. It wont matter if you plant more pike. Maybe if they could get the carp down by other means, then plant pike, you may have a chance, but Yuba has defied the best laid plans of many biologists over the years, and isn’t going to change in its difficulty to manage.
Finally, from the second article.
“Combined methods such as rotenone treatment followed by stocking with carp predators succeeded at restoring clear waters for a year or two, but there is little information indicating success in the long term.”
Believe me, the DWR would be all over predatory control of carp if they thought it would work. They did look at this along with many other possibilites when formulating the UL recovery plan.
P:S I do have some hope for a herpes vrus that controls carp though. i do’t know if it was seriously considered at the time of the recovery plan, but may show promise.
Before this thread degenerates any further and gets shut down, I will post the response I got from Reed Harris in reply to my question about enlisting the help of anglers in the carp removal process. I suggested that we have an ongoing “carpathon” where dedicated carp killers can take their kill to record the weights and dispose of the carcasses. I also suggested having carp fishing derbies for families to participate in catching and removing carp. Here is his reply:
Pat…it does make sense and we always have people ask how they can help. Over the years we looked at having a local involvement committee that would help take aspects of our program such as the Hobble Creek restoration and explain it to local communities and thus give us more exposure while at the same time getting feedback from local users on what we were doing wrong and how we might work more closely with them to resolve problems…eventually this morphed into the Utah Lake Fishing Forum where we tried to target avid fisherman, many of whom we felt were simply opposed to what we were doing because we were just out to save the June sucker and that we would soon target all predators in Utah Lake. As you have seen our approach is very broad based, getting water back in the system, improving access, restoring tributary habitats, stocking hatchery fish, all based on the research we are conducting through DWR and local universities. Our last Utah Lake Fishing Forum meeting only had four or five fisherman so we have been having second thoughts about that as well. We have talked about getting a Friends of Utah Lake group started, but we felt it would be hard to start and keep going and we recognize the last thing we need is one more thing to do. Any Friends group would have to be independent and self-sustaining.
With regard to carp removal, we appreciate every effort to remove carp. But here again it becomes a matter of scale. We have not sponsored individual groups or efforts not because we didn’t want them removing carp, but because of the effort required to get them established, monitor their performance and try and fund or sustain what they are doing. That’s why we just go for the big hammer, commercial fisherman.
We do think that there will be opportunities to help in the future and in fact we have used dedicated hunters. For example, some dedicated hunters and Danny Potts’ Salt Lake Fish and Game Association, help set up our Utah Lake Festival booths, helped teach and assisted people who wanted to fish at the festival, and some even helped print 1,000 T-shirts. Danny and his group also helped clean-up and improve our new Hobble Creek restoration area this Spring. Your email has reminded me of our need to improve this area of our program. Perhaps we, as a recovery program, need to sit down with you and look at how we can better utilize angler knowledge and talents in helping Utah Lake recovery. I will copy the biologists and outreach professionals working with us and see how we can restart our thinking on such an effort.
Reed Harris
Thanks for putting Reed’s reply up.
RE"Our last Utah Lake Fishing Forum meeting only had four or five fisherman so we have been having second thoughts about that as well."
This is sad. There are/were some access projects that were discussed and planned in the forum meetings that could provide a nice benefit to the angling public. Hopefully, they will be completed, even if the ULFF goes by the wayside.
I was pleasantly surprised with the courtesy that I was extended by the committee the two times that I attended. Even when I expressed an opinion contrary to what was being presented I received total respect from the committee.
Theres two pages of this thread. Obviously you didnt see that or you would understand this post. Go back and read the whole thread and it should make sense.
If you chose not to, the point was to explain how predatory fish ALONG with man power can turn a fishery around.
Doggone, I understand that carp grow quickly and are out of eating size quickly. But if all the adults babies are being gobbled up as fast as they are being hatched, the overall population will be reduced. Thats whats happened at strawberry. Instead of clouds of small chub everywhere, you now see small pods of large chubs. Perfect.
I agree with the herpes thing. From the little i’ve heard anyway. So it sounds like we can agree with the fact that rough fish along with manpower can make a difference. Just like I said in earlier posts.
As most folks “in the know” realize, the June Sucker Restoration program is the driving force behind carp removal. Since the Junies are under FEDERAL protection, anything new added to the lake would be subject to their approval. It would be virtually impossible to get approval for dumping in other species or more fish with teeth, even though they might potentially dispose of some carp along with the Junies they eat.
In the ongoing communications I have been having with the people in charge of the restoration program, they state that they are all about mass removal of adult carp, not just predation on small ones at this point. Every large spawning female removed from the biomass of carp represents millions of baby carp…every years for many years. Carp live a long time.
**They also talk about reaching a “tipping point”, where the adult population is reduced to the point that the majority of the annual reproduction WILL be consumed by the predator population…just as at Strawberry and also Starvation and increasingly at Jordanelle. **
They are projecting about a 5 year program of aggressive netting to remove enough of the adult carp to reach that balance. That represents a huge number of adult carp. Adding more predators would not even begin to have the same effect on the overall population.
**My personal opinion is that once the carp are reduced to a “manageable” number, the feds will start targeting white bass and other predators as a menace to the Junies. Right now the focus is on carp, but the predators are next in the crosshairs. **
RE:**“My personal opinion is that once the carp are reduced to a “manageable” number, the feds will start targeting white bass and other predators as a menace to the Junies. Right now the focus is on carp, but the predators are next in the crosshairs.”
**
The last ULFF meeting had some discussion on this. The data has shown that the main predator they are concerned about is the white bass. They have done some cost, benefit, and difficulty analyses of reducing the WB to a level that would be desirable. White bass present a different challenge if they were to go after them. While they do not live a long time at a size that predators can’t consume, like carp, they reproduce so rapidly that one or two spawns will return their numbers from very low to very high levels within 1-2 years. We just saw that at UL after the drought. (where the wb went from being scarce to the current high numbers) The expected improved habitat also should allow all of the game species to improve their numbers rapidly, even more than what they do now. The presented data suggested that it may or may not be cost effective ( or ultimately important biologically )to go after them. The data is showing that walleyes and channel cats are apparently much less of a threat (surprisingly) and no plans are currently in the works to go after these species.
The data did show however, that the highest benefit would be obtained from dealing with the carp and thus we see what is being done.
So do they want to restore the lake to a balance of June Sucker and Bonniville Cutthroat? What ever will you do TD? UL Cats, Whities, and Eyes is your bread and butter!
So do they want to restore the lake to a balance of June Sucker and Bonniville Cutthroat? What ever will you do TD? UL Cats, Whities, and Eyes is your bread and butter!
**I don’t look for cutts to ever again be a part of the ecosystem in Utah Lake. If so, color me not there. **
Bread and butter? Nah, I am more of a peanut butter and honey kinda guy.