They have been working the sandy beach area on the south end the past couple weeks. It’s interesting to watch them cut out a bunch of holes and use their “submarines” to drag their nets to the other end of the area they have mapped out.
Jordan Loy and I were in the same unit for 5 years and talked about their carp operation often. He would show me pics of monster game fish they would throw back, state record eyes and all others. He also said they could keep the white bass but not sure if they still can. Why would they want to get rid of white bass? Were they overpopulated a few years ago?
I can’t ever support a program that destroys my white bass fishing!
Thanks for the laugh. Ever stop to think that the small percentage of white bass that they remove will be quickly replaced after the next successful spawn? Not to mention now much more healthy they will be with not having to compete with the large number of carp that they are removing. IMNSHO the only way this will ever be successful is if they continue the netting into eternity or introduce some type of biological control for the removal of the carp.
The Loy’s have always been able to keep the White Bass by catch, that is not anything new. The fear that other game fish will be destroyed is a real one, in spite of all the denials of the June Sucker folks. Look at what is happening on the Green and Colorado Rivers, they are electroshocking these waters and destroying all the channel cats, carp, everything in the water other than the endangered species, bony tailed chub, least chub, Colorado River Squaw fish, hump back chub. There is a small core of dedicated cat fisherman in Green River and the UFWS is destroying all fish other than the endangered ones.
Next up for Utah Lake is the diversion of the last 2 miles of the Provo River. The plan is to move the course of the river to the North West at a point that is just below the new overpass on the river, about 2 miles up from the lake. It will dewater the river from that point down stream and divert it out into the fields to the North west to build a ‘delta area’ for the June Sucker spawn and nursery. The rehab of Hobble Creek was practice for this part of the recovery program.
A few comments.
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It is a real shame that they have suspended the Utah Lake fisheries forum/committee for the time being. There, interested folks could hear and learn` from real biologists instead of the “experts” on BFT.
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RE"The fear that other game fish will be destroyed is a real one, in spite of all the denials"
Why then did the fish forum and the DWR spend so much of their time trying to improve sportsmans access, if the ultimate sinister goal is to remove all the game fish and fishing? Why are they “wasting their time” negotiating now to get the Knolls open again? Having gotten to know the real “june sucker” people, one thing I can tell you with certainty is that they want to keep UL fishing good with their program. If the habitat improvements ultimately take, the fishing will indeed improve.
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The biologists explained that it would be impossible to eliminate the white bass, due to the fact that they reproduce so quickly and go from low numbers to high in just a couple of years. We’ve seen that recently the past 4-5 years. Therefore, there are no plans to go after them. Additionally, when the biologists did their food web analysis, their concern about walleyes regarding Junies was reduced from expected, and there is no interest in going after them either. However, I realize that in saying this, NOTHING they could say will assuage the paranoia that some folks have that they won’t be able to fill their buckets full of white bass every year.
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RE" The rehab of Hobble Creek was practice for this part of the recovery program."
Yeah, I drive past the area several time a week and live in Springville. It once was a nondescript pasture. What is there now? Habitat for lots of fish and birds. What do I see people do there? They are fishing! Ooooh, the calamity.
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I do have decidedly mixed feelings about the proposed Provo delta plan. Public involvement could be the key to obtain a mutually beneficial result that we all can live with.
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As has been stated, the Loys have kept white bass for years. It really has screwed up the white bass fishery there, hasn’t it?
Never will be an agreement between enviros and sporties. Same thing is happening in Cali where they are diverting water to deltas to save one species of shiner leaving farm fields dry
I first witnessed the Loys fishing operation through the ice in the early 1980s. They have been at it for a long time as TD mentioned. I dont know if they are taking more carp out now than they did in the past. Since they have been doing this for so many years I am not confident that we will ever reach the so called tipping point or not, however 2 million fewer carp is still 2 million fewer. Even back then they were keeping white bass. I think the water year and the ability to have a good spawn is a far bigger factor in white bass numbers. I would love to see the number of carp reduced so if this works I am for it. As far as the question on the redirection of the provo river I need a lot more info. Either way since it is a project for an endangered species it will carry on.
Do they chum the area before they set or pull the nets?
Seems like alot of fish for just a blind set.
I dont believe so. The have a pattern of holes and they actually drag the net quite a ways under the ice. Its not exact but think of a football grid with a hole at one goal post and holes at the 10 yard markers on both sides and a large hole at the goal posts on the other end. They put the net in move it down the field from the yard markers then drag it out the big hole at the other end. This isnt exact but should give you a geneal idea
Do they chum the area before they set or pull the nets?
Seems like alot of fish for just a blind set.
No chumming. ** Illegal and not really necessary. Carp tend to school up more during the winter and the Loys have many years experience in knowing where their favorite hangouts seem to be. It is actually easier to get large hauls in the winter than during open water periods when the carp are more widely scattered…except for during the spawn in the spring.**
I am not denigrating the efforts to provide more sportsmans access and all. Been part of that process from the start. What I am talking about it the fact that if all the efforts to recover the June sucker fail, then you will see the total annihilation of all other species in the lake other than the June sucker. That is the mandate and they will do what ever they need to do to see that that mandate is carried out. All you have to do is look at what has happened elsewhere when an endangered species is being recovered to see what can happen here. California Delta, to recover a small fish, they are considering dewatering and diverting the fresh water in the Delta, which will destroy the Bass fishery there. Eastern Oregon, to recover an endangered minnow, farmers and ranchers were stripped of their water rights so that the minnows habitat could be enhanced, Virgin River in Utah has a small minnow that is being used to hold up development of that resource.
The issue here is the USFWS being honest with the people of Utah in regards to the June Sucker Recovery. For the most part they have tried to give people ‘most’ of the story, but they have always withheld the last part, what will happen if all the current efforts fail and more dramatic. All efforts to get an answer from them have always been diverted from the question.
I appreciate all that they are doing, they just need to be more up front about what the end result may be if they fail.
Just on a personal note: Even thought I have not used my degree, I do have a Bachelors Degree in Fisheries Management, just went a different direction after graduation. I also have about 50 years experience on the water, much of it on Utah Lake !!!
It is wasting money, hopefully they run out of funds so they won’t drain and divert the provo river. Utah lake is lovely the way it is. When people start to manage it, it will never be as good as the good ol days. Phragmites control has already destroy some of my top crappie, bluegill, and lmb spots. Pretty soon there will be nothing but suckers if and when they succeed. I’m sure they’ll hunt down the other non-native game fish if they get the chance. Anything for the june sucker.
I agree… it’s the idiotic management of these lakes that cuase the problems to begin with. I don’t see how any of this is going to help. If they are leaving 25%of the carp it won’t take long for them to increase in numbers again. Seems like a huge waste of money.
The science on this comes from studies in the ocean regarding several species there. I have not read the briefs on the studies, but one of the PhD’s at Utah State was the one that looked at them and then applied the equations to Utah Lake. One of the funny things in the beginning was trying to determine the carp population. One method used is a recapture method. A specific number of individuals are captured, tagged and released, then they go back and ‘recapture’ the target species. They caught and tagged like 20,000 carp, and went back and when they did the recapture, they only got several hundred tagged individuals, which was not enough for the formula, so they had to use other means to estimate the population. The science behind this is interesting and the presentation by the Ut. State guys was very informative. I believe that this may be the first time this formula is being used in fresh water, so this is all very experimental. Great if it works, expensive if is does not !! Prior to this, DWR’s efforts to manage Ut. Lake were very minimal. Charlie Thompson, former Central Region Biologist tried for years, but was shut down by his superiors in SLC. Our current Central Bio does a great job, but again, the Feds have most of the control !!! The politics of Carp !!
RE" What I am talking about it the fact that if all the efforts to recover the June sucker fail, then you will see the total annihilation of all other species in the lake other than the June sucker. That is the mandate and they will do what ever they need to do to see that that mandate is carried out. All you have to do is look at what has happened elsewhere when an endangered species is being recovered to see what can happen here."
IMO, the June sucker program is no different than the Bonneville cutt program. As long as the State is doing a good job in restoring the Bonneville cutts, and they have, the Feds will butt out and also the lawsuits from the extremist enviros fail as well. As you know, the JSRIP has been run by the DWR and other state and county agencies. Since the JSRIP is doing well, the Feds have no need to butt in. It has been nice that they have pitched in some funding but they haven’t provided all of it. And in spite of all the criticism by fishermen on internet forums, they have been successful up to now. Due mainly to stocking, the sucker numbers are up. We even have a few more going up Hobble creek and SF river. Now, they have a long ways to go, but they have not “failed” at all. That makes the draconian response you describe by the USFWS highly unlikely.
Now, IMO, there is only ONE thing that would cause the Feds to act as you describe in your worse case scenario. That would be if the State and county started to listen to BFTers and decided to stop the program and recovery efforts. If the State stopped the recovery and told the Feds to pound sand, then yes, the Feds might step in and if they did, they may handle things differently. But I simply do not see that happening as long as the JSRIP is progressing in their efforts. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on how worried we may be about a draconian solutions at UL.
I have said this before, but it is invariably commented that it is a waste of money. As a Utah county resident, I disagree. I get a cleaner lake, a rehabilitated Hobble creek with more public access, more fishing access to UL itself, better habitat for fish and game, and IMO, better fishing! Thats quite a bit, and I haven’t even mentioned the Junies. I feel I’m getting my moneys worth out of the JSRIP.
RE" Even thought I have not used my degree, I do have a Bachelors Degree in Fisheries Management, just went a different direction after graduation. I also have about 50 years experience on the water, much of it on Utah Lake !!!"
Good to hear. There were a number of** us** (myself included) from the public in the UL fisheries forum that have degrees in the biology field. It is too bad that they have put it on hiatus.
I love the outcomes that have resulted from the JSRP, I just don’t have the faith in the UFWS and their minions that they will keep their hands off if something does not pan out !!
Agreed! I’ve got enough critical thinking skills to not just believe immediately what individuals or institutions tell me. All institutions and individuals are biased to whatever dominant ideology that social or political group advocates. And their rhetoric will always attempt to promote their views and the pros of their views while insidiously drawing attention away, or merely not mentioning the cons. That’s what public relations people are for…….make someone or some issue seem really good and spin doctor all protests into something positive. I have no doubt in my mind that everything that eats june suckers is the enemy to the recovery. Flyfishing lover asks why do they want all Northerns eradicated. Well really it’s pretty simple……..northerns loooove to eat suckers LOL.
And I’ve been to hobble creek. I even fished it once………NOT impressed. There was very little flow and so shallow there were only a very few white bass in there during a year when the provo had thousands and thousands. Even the usually dry American Fork river was holding thousands that year as well as millrace, and yet hobble flowed so shallow and slow, the creek in City Creek Mall has more fish holding potential LOL.
Provo River will for sure be ruined……all those honey holes and patterns are doomed.
And yet they still have it closed for the walleye run……I didn’t fish walleye back when it was open and now that I do fish walleye it’s been always closed. Time to open it up before its ultimate destruction!! Willard bay inlet is open, why not UL tribs? There’s little recruitment from UL tribs either. Recruitment comes from the main lake for both white bass and eyes.