Slot Limits

:sunglasses:Disagree all you want. But, your opinions are based upon theory…not observed conditions over the past two years. I suspect you have not fished Strawberry at all during that time.


Angler results have changed. Virtually all Strawberry “regulars”…who catch more fish than all of the amateurs combined…universally claim that the numbers have decreased and the average sizes and weights have decreased. Again, not all fish show this trend but many do. A lot more than three years ago when the minnow population first noticeably declined.


These same Berry pros also catch most of the truly large cutts, and most of them are returned to the water. Yes, there is a harvest factor among the larger fish, but there are just not as many reaching the upper limits of the slot.


And, the cutts may disagree with you on “being better off without forage species”. The Bear Lake cutts are still programmed to eat meat and are slow to revert to slurping “soup”. Perhaps they do not read the same things you do. At least they are a lot more prone to hit large lures than tiny lures or even small pieces of bait. But, the rainbows do.

  1. My opinion that the slot limit is the limiting factor of size is based upon observed and factual data supplied from trained biologists on numerous reservoirs and in numerous situations. If the slot limit were raised to 24 inches on the high end, I am willing to bet that the number of fish ranging from 22-24 inches would substantially increase.

  2. I am not sure who you are referring to when you speak of “virtually all Strawberry ‘regulars’”, but that is subjective opinion and not based upon scientific evidence. I would question who these “regulars” are and how many of them you have spoken with.

  3. Claiming to know who the pros are and how many fish they catch, release, and harvest is laughable. Strawberry Reservoir is a very large body of water that has a huge number of anglers fishing it. I would question whether you know all the “pros” and whether or not you know how many fish are or are not harvested.

  4. What you seem to forget about bear lake cutts is that even they are NOT programmed to eat fish until they reach certain sizes. The small fish must eat a diet of zooplankton and other invertebrates before they convert to a diet consisting mainly of fish. Based on actual scientific evidence of bear lake cutthroat growth rates in Strawberry and other reservoirs that have been poisoned, I know that these fish grow quicker and healthier when forage fishes are not present at high numbers or immediately following rotenone treatments.

With that being said, to become exceptionally large bear lake cutts are a lot like lake trout, their sizes tend to max out unless they convert to a total fish diet. Generally, cutthroat–like lake trout–tend to max out around 20-22 inches of length if they do not make the conversion. There will always be a bottleneck through which the cutts must pass in order to start growing exceptionally large…just like with lake trout. If the numbers of forage fishes declines, that bottleneck may get more difficult to pass through and competition between small cutthroat for the available invertebrates becomes more fierce and may restrict growth rates. The answer, though, is NOT to increase prey numbers, but to decrease predator numbers.

Remember, a reservoir’s carrying capacity is like a bucket that can hold only so much. IF the number of forage fishes are declining, then one of two things must be happening: 1) trout growth is increasing because the numbers of fish in the bucket has declined and to make up for the lost biomass trout put on extra weight or 2) trout numbers have increased to replace the lost biomass in chubs/minnows. If the second scenario is true, the DWR should be reducing the numbers of cutts they are stocking to assure high growth rates.

Regardless, though, I tend to believe what the biologists are saying about the reservoir than any fisherman: “There was an immediate positive response to the overall adult population due to the regulations imposed in 2003, and it appears that the population will remain at high levels through the next few years. More importantly, the age structure of the adult population has changed with more of the five- and six-year-old fish than we have ever seen in the past. As is shown in some of the following data, these larger (more predatory) cutthroat are very important in limiting chub population growth in Strawberry. Currently, about 20 percent of the cutthroat in the gillnet catches are over 20 inches, and just over five percent are over 22 inches. We have never had that many large fish in the history of this fishery.”

To answer your other question, the state record cutt from the Strawberry of old was probably a pure strain Bonneville cutt. The Bear Lake cutts in Strawberry right now are a strain of Bonneville cutt, with some unique piscivorous habits.

Interestingly, the state record cutt was caught in the reservoir only 7 years after trout were first stocked. And, that 27 pound monster was caught before anglers introduced nongame fish…

I’ll throw out my opinion here as I consider myself to be a Strawberry “Regular”. (I fished it 22 times last year and caught LOTS of cutts out of it…documented, so I think I am qualified to give an opinion…:slight_smile:).

This last year (including the ice fishing season of 2007-2008) we (my cousin and I) have also noticed that the size and girth have sort of “peaked” for lack of a better word or description. 2 and 3 years ago, we could bank on catching multiple over-the-slotter type fish each trip and rarely would we catch a “snake” or a shorty. Now, if we catch one over the slot it’s a big deal. I’ve caught 37 fish out of that lake so far since Jan 1, 2009 , with only ONE over the slot, at 22 1/4".
I spend a lot of time (and money) at that lake and that is my non-scientific, non-thinking, non-biased opinion. Just a plain old observation. Frankly I don’t know what causes or doesn’t cause what I’ve observed and in fact in just might be plain old luck or non luck on the catching part.

I don’t care. It is the best fishery around, I like the slot, I like to catch and release a lot of big fish. Take a bunch of scouts up there and watch their faces when you pull a “slot 19” fish up". It’s the biggest fish they’ve ever seen! Then they really light up when you catch a 22 incher!

I took some some work colleagues up there two summers ago in my boat for a “business trip”, and between the 5 of us we caught about 75 fish in 4 hours. My two bosses who were on the boat, from Pennsylvania (score!) had NEVER experienced a fishing trip like that with either numbers or size of the fish. They talk about that trip every time I talk with them still. They had nothing but good things to say about the management of that fishery, and I agree.

I am excited about Scofield, and anticipate that in a few years it will be as good as Strawberry, only better with the addition of the Tiger Trouts!

Just my opinion. Everybody is entitled to one.

Randy

:sunglasses:Kinda reminds me of the old joke about the guy whose wife walked into his office while his secretary was sitting in his lap…smoochin’ it up. He angrily growled at his wife…“Okay, who ya gonna believe…me or your lyin’ eyes?”


You always present eloquent and glowing arguments…based upon the words of biologists…often generalized covering multiple waters and many species. All good. But, there is no substitute for spending a full year on a specific water, observing what happens during a speficic season. The studies quoted are two years old. The current conditions are changing.


I respect the tradition in your family of producing great DWR biologists. But, I respectfully suggest that the biologists do not always get it right. When their one-time-a-year netting results contradict what is really happening at other times of the year, then we have to trust our own lyin’ eyes. Theory and reality sometimes do not go together.


A good example is the Yuba walleye situation. Netting results taken during the spawning runs would seem to show that there were bajillions of walleyes in Yuba, and that anglers should have a banner year. In truth, those were about the last walleyes seen from Yuba during 2008. Only one here and there. The fish are still there, but our lyin’ eyes could not find them.


No need to dispute my observations or the constant interaction I maintain with many of our better fishermen in the area. That is reality. I suspect I have a lot better handle on Strawberry than you do, even though I do not fish it either.


One thing that contributes to the low numbers of fish over the slot is evolution and adaptation. It would seem that fish have become educated to the need for remaining below the 22 inch mark, to avoid going home with those who want to eat them. [/b]

I am by no means a biologist nor am I one of these said, pro anglers, but I have caught my fair share of fish in the slot and also quite a few over the slot. I am only stating what I have seen on the water. So here we go :sunglasses:. I fish the berry religiously year round. My observations over the last 5 years of consistently fishing strawberry is that fish caught over the slot limit are being kept. Many of the people I take fishing at the berry, go in hopes of catching that keeper they can take home. I don’t keep any cutts from the berry but it doesn’t bother me if someone I fish with wants to take home dinner. I have also seen the many people that love to hang around the fish cleaning station for hours on end, showing off the 23" cutthroat that they caught!

This being said, when they first started the slot limit I noticed that every year the cutthroats seemed to increase their average size by about 1" to 11/2". The first year 17"-18" cutts seemed to be common. The next year it jumped to 18"-19", and the next year 19-20", etc. Once the fish started averaging between that 21"-22" mark, I noticed that the average size of cutthroat never exceeded the slot limit of 22". While I’m not exactly sure why this is happening, my opinion tells me that if the slot limit was raised to 24" we would then start to see fish moving towards a 23"-24" average in length! I personally feel like it is due to over harvesting. It is not my right to tell anyone to throw back a 23" cutthroat in which by law they are allowed to keep. I believe in the right to keep a fish if it’s legal, but I think this is the main factor in why you don’t see fish over 22" caught on a regular basis.

As far as the forage fish go, and again this is based on time on the water and a ****very limited biology background. I believe that the trash fish are a huge part of the cutthroats daily diet. Many times on the lake last year I would look for schools of chubs! Why, because thats where the cutthroats will be. Find a school of chubs in 15 to 20 feet of water and drop a jig right below them in 25 to 30 feet of water and you will catch cutthroat I promise. Every year I see new sucker fry all over the reservoir, so I don’t believe they are competing over food. Seems to me that there is plenty of food available.

I guess my point is after all this rambling, that harvesting fish over 22" is the problem. Thats just my opinion, so don’t everybody go and get huffy! As far as making people throw back fish over 22" thats up to the lawmakers to decide! They are the only ones that can make a 24" slot limit the law! I am a catch and release guy, but it’s only cause I don’t like to eat fish! You will never hear me give anyone gruff over keeping a legal fish or telling them they should catch and release. Not my style!:sunglasses:

Okay:
I understand that I’m not as smart as alot of the professionals,
But I do know that if you have to many smaller predators the larger predators don’t have a chance because they can’t compete,
That would be like us older guy trying to win a race with a much younger person it just dose not work.
And look at the lakers up at the gorge, the pups were eating the big Mac’s out of house and home,
And yes I know they take a lot longer to grow that big
but if it is not in balance it is not going to work.
Look at a aquarium if you have to many fish in it they don’t grow but if you take a few out they all grow,
And yes strawberry is a big Rev. but remember 90%
of the fish live in 10% of the water?

And as far as my A/C Plugs witch are the best" not being as smart as the minnows that would be true, So if the minnows are that smart and fast then how is the older and bigger fish going to survive???
I’ll keep going where I can catch bigger trout with my stupid A/C plugs [:p]
Oh by the way a fisherman that fishes the lure has a bigger brain than that of a minnow I hope?:astonished:[;)]

:sunglasses:Good points all around. It stands to reason that if people quit keeping 22 inch fish there will be more 24 inch fish. No argument. Also no argument on the fact that a lot of the over slot fish ARE being kept. But, that was part of the plan. DWR did want folks to be able to harvest some fish. The bad news is that there are far too many UNDER the slot that are being smuggled out in hidden compartments in boats, in coolers and even wrapped up in clothing items. Not uncommon to see sub-slot cutts being cleaned at the cleaning stations and the violators professing to not know anything at all about a slot limit.


**Just for the record, my reason for getting this thread going was to have fun with it…with the cartoon. Not to start a war of opinions. I think Strawberry is a masterwork of fisheries management and that it is one of the premiere trout waters in the country. I am making no DOOM AND GLOOM forecasts. Just commenting that there are some changes in the overall fishery. Hopefully they will all turn out to be positive. **


I think it is great to have such a lake within reasonable driving distance of the Wasatch Front. There have been a lot of new anglers…young and old…who have been forever turned on to fishing as the result of an “average” day at Da Berry. A whole lot of fishermen lay claim to having caught their most fish ever…and their biggest fish…at that old fishin’ hole. Let’s hope it only gets better.

“But, there is no substitute for spending a full year on a specific water, observing what happens during a speficic season.”


X2

I totally agree with everyone on this,
It has a special spot inside of me as a kid growing up
at the berry and being part of it back then and seeing everything she have been though,
My two biggest rainbows came from the berry
a 12lb 'er and a 12 3/4lb’er and some nice cutts back in the days also. I guess I’m just getting old [:/]

I think that you are on to something with the over harvest of fish over the slot . I let go all my fish hoping that a nother person will do the same thing. And we will all be able to catch big fish. but I have no problem with people who like to keep and eat them.

But my liking is to catch big hard fighting fish. even if the cuts don’t fight hard Ilove to see my kids,little brother and other people who don’t fish as often faces light up when they catch a 18’‘to 22’’ fish.

I wood like to see more bows as well. But like we all say we cant please everyone.

I agree. Make Strawberry mandatory catch and release for a couple years, and we’ll see marked improvements in that fishery.

More trophy’s anyone?

I don’t bother to drive that far to fish strawberry. The slot is too restrictive. Allowing one fish of any size in possession might be okay, but I just don’t bother with the berry slimers right now. Slimers are just food…they fight some but I’m not that impressed with cutts either. So they’re going snaky? Not surprised…hopefully a big crash will allow people to see things differently. The crash is just like a major earthquake now. Sooner or later. Just like utah lake a few years ago. They learned…now the walleye limit is up to 10. It won’t matter because it’s not possible to harvest that many eyes in a day. lol.

You always present eloquent and glowing arguments…based upon the words of biologists…often generalized covering multiple waters and many species. All good. But, there is no substitute for spending a full year on a specific water, observing what happens during a speficic season. The studies quoted are two years old. The current conditions are changing.


I respect the tradition in your family of producing great DWR biologists. But, I respectfully suggest that the biologists do not always get it right. When their one-time-a-year netting results contradict what is really happening at other times of the year, then we have to trust our own lyin’ eyes. Theory and reality sometimes do not go together.


[
No need to dispute my observations or the constant interaction I maintain with many of our better fishermen in the area. That is reality. I suspect I have a lot better handle on Strawberry than you do, even though I do not fish it either.

  1. Hmmm…when was the last time YOU fished it? Didn’t you say it was 5 years ago? So, your glowing observations from fishing “pros” are much better observations than documented facts by fishery biologists…who, by the way, have caught far more fish than any of your fishing “pros” and probably more than all of them combined. The studies I quoted are two years old, but nothing has changed since then…the reality is that your “pros” eyes are lyin’!

  2. Just to make sure you understand something…gill-netting at Strawberry is NOT just one-time-a year…I respectfully suggest that biologists get it right far more often than fishermen do!

  3. No need to dispute them? How do you know who the better fishermen in the area are and who are not? IT kills me that you even have the gall to state such a subjective opinion like that as a fact…Strawberry maintains about 1.5 million hours of fishing pressure each year, and you somehow maintain the knowledge of which fishermen are the best those hours? Come on, that is very unrealistic!

The truth about Strawberry is this…the reason more fish don’t exist above 22 inches is that the slot limits upper limit is 22 inches. Fishermen harvest the fish over 22 inches. The limiting factor keeping fish from growing larger is harvest…

“But, there is no substitute for spending a full year on a specific water, observing what happens during a speficic season.”


So, where do the full time biologists assigned to Strawberry Reservoir 365 1/4 days a year fit into this? Do anglers really have more data than the biologists?

Pat – I’ve respected your opinions for a long time – but you really need to stop replying to this thread. The more you reply, the more you show your ignorance and arrogance. The biologists at Strawberry know what is going on.

FWIW – I’d still like to see the rainbows included in the slot. If you want to see more cutts over 22 inches – increase the slot to 24. It’s harvest that is limiting them – nothing else.

Okay I said I was done? ( NOT [;)] )
One other thing, After the big kill off in 1961 the fishing got a lot better and in the late 60 and early 70’s
we caught a lot more bigger fish and lot of good size rainbows, I don’t remember a lot of trash fish back then that happened after it was over fished in the mid 70’s,
But with the liberal limits back then of 8 fish and some people going out 2 or 3 times a day filling there limits and totally over fishing it,
Then the chubs took over again because of it,
you can’t have all one size in a lake, it dose not work,
Look at all the other trophy fishery around the US and Canada they don’t do the slot limits like we are, and they have a lot of big fish and still have the small fish to take home and eat or have shore lunch?

There has to be a catch and release program of some kind, I do believe with the 15" to 22" slot limit you will never have a trophy fishery that way, Sure if you just want to catch fish and you don’t care about the size then fine,
But if you want a real trophy fishery that everyone can enjoy then I do think you have to do something different,

Let some of the smaller fish be taken and close it to any big fish being taken catch and release only on the bigger fish until they start to take over then open it up to the trophy over a certain size? that would open up the door for the fish to grow and mature,
I love the berry but the is why I will not fish it until it changes.

( Okay I’m done ) Thanks.[;)]
I know I’m just rambling on?:slight_smile:

I’m curious, what data are the biologists using in their management model? How often, when, and where do they conduct their net surveys? Are they using angler survey data?

Not implying anything, just wondering?

Parr – if you want to get the most correct info for your questions, go straight to the horses mouth! Don’t take my word, or Pat’s word, or W2U’s word for any of this.

Call Alan Ward (Strawberry Project Leader) and talk to him.

His contact info can be found using the Utah State Directory of Employees: http://web.state.ut.us/phone.htm

**> **
But, that was part of the plan. DWR did want folks to be able to harvest some fish.
**
**

**[;)]**Absolutely 100% agree! The DWR has to try and satisfy those that want to keep fish, and I have no problem with that! I actually enjoy when someone on my boat has there eyes lit up with joy after catching a keeper! I don’t mind if they keep it, like I said, the only reason I don’t keep fish is because I don’t like trout. I just love to catch them! The slot limit doesn’t bother me at all. I have still caught quite a few cutthroats over 22" with our best of 2008 going 26 1/2" and healthy weighing 8 lb. My cousin was actually the one lucky enough to land that beauty, but my point is there are plenty of big fish in Strawberry! You just have to put in your time on the water just like anywhere else. Learn the lake and find some areas where your chances increase in catching a fish of that magnitude.

**> **
I think Strawberry is a masterwork of fisheries management and that it is one of the premiere trout waters in the country. I am making no DOOM AND GLOOM forecasts.
**
**


:sunglasses:Also agree! I have no complaints with the way things are being managed at the berry. I think we all know it’s the DWR’s baby! It’s nice to be able to have a good discussion about a body of water that most of us love to fish, without argument. With the exception of a few![frown] It’s very informative and helps us all understand the waters we fish even more! Unfortunately you always have the people that feel their opinion is fact! I am a geologist and trust me I deal with these types of people on a daily basis. But the fact is, that science is based upon theory! Without the compromise of all our great minds put together, people tend to end up with a very tunnel visioned view! Good discussion!

Call Alan Ward (Strawberry Project Leader) and talk to him.

I didn’t call Alan, but I did contact him via email. I asked him some of the very questions posed on this thread…

The average condition factor (kTL=(weight/length)^3*(10^5)) for all cutthroat in the fall netting has varied little over the last 5 years.

2008 = 0.86
2007 = 0.86
2006 = 0.85
2005 = 0.83
2004 = 0.88.

So very little real variation at all in condition. As far as the average size of the cutthroat, it is still very good.

2008 = 460 mm
2007 = 476 mm
2006 = 456 mm
2005 = 444 mm
2004 = 449 mm

According to Alan: “We also still have a lot of fish over 20” and even over 22". During the 2008 fall netting about 24% of our fish were over 20% and 8% are over 22". One thing to remember about what anglers see in their catch is that angling techniques can determine the size and type of fish they catch. For instance, pop-gear and worm in the open water will probably not target the larger fish. Therefore, an anglers catch is not truly reflective of what is in the reservoir. Even with the limitations of our methods (gillnetting) it is still the most consistent and reliable method we have for obtaining this information.

Also, many questions come up as to why they don’t see more fish over the slot. Well, in fact we have many fish that are over the slot (8 out of every 100 cutthroat). Again, fishing techniques and location have a lot to do with it. However, with that said another reason is harvest. Harvest at Strawberry has probably always been a limiting factor for fish size potential. With the high amount of pressure we receive there, it does not take long for those fish over 22" (or even 21 7/8" to be found and harvested). Therefore, some think that the fish are stunted, and cannot get over that size, when in reality they can, and will, if given the chance. However, we have to also realize that some people still want a harvest component to the fishery. It appears that we can still gain the necessary predatory benefit from these fish by the time they get to 22" (giving them 2-3 years of protection by the slot), and then allow people the opportunity to harvest those fish. Most of our chub predation comes from those cutts 18" to 21", and they are doing their job well. Chub numbers remain relatively low (about 60% lower overall than what we had pre-slot in 2002, and one year old chub numbers are 97% lower than we had in 2002)."

I think that is what I’ve been trying to saying all along?
With out all the #'s
But if you look at what he has said,
That the #'s are staying the same thing ? A few over the slot 8 out of a hundred and that is a estimate ? after all this time
and that is just in that small area that they are netting
so if that is the case then what I said about the bigger fish being eaten out of house and home by the mid size fish 15" to 22" would be true right?
I know I don’t know what everyone else knows about this
but common scents would point you in that direction,

So what his is saying ( As long as we can keep it where it is we will be okay?)
Also I know that there are a lot of good fisherman out there and they still can’t find they bigger fish consistently
then I still think there is something wrong with this picture? ( I think it is all about the money. )
Just like the Deer and Elk permits $$$$$ and also being able to retrieve down game with a wheeler on roads that are already there / But it is okay for the sheep herder and the cattle man to drive where ever they see fit and that is okay, ( NOTHING AGENTS THEM ) It’s all about who much money they can get and the hell with what anyone says.
they will sit in Washington and make the laws based on the money. not what the people want or say.

Sure hope I don’t get anyone mad I’m not trying to just trying to make a point [;)] [:/] [crazy] :slight_smile: