Who impacts a water more, Spear or angler

Utah Fishing Reports & Discussion Utah Fishing General
1

Just out of curiosity at bass rods post on Jordanelle being in a downward spiral and alot of the flak hitting spearfisherman I wanted to ask a few questions about who realisticaly hurts a water more.

Spearfishing obviously has an extremely high mortality rate. It’s not 100 % as occasionally you will graze the fish, punch the fish and not penetrate and or lose it all together. But clearly the fish to death rate is high. And they do seem to usually get great fish. Most think they are just out to get the biggest fattest oldest fish in the lake for bragging rights. Yet most of the guys I’ve spoken with enjoy eating the kill and like most know that age usually can make an off taste. It obviously would also be easier to hit a 2 foot long moving target through water while swimming than a 10"er. So the average will always be higher.

Now Anglers on the other hand have a much lower mortality rate but it also is higher than most think. If the fish is hooked deep the mortality rate is often higher than 35%. If the fish is hooked correctly in the jaw it’s dropped to an average of 2.75. And that is if they are handled correctly and released correctly.

So it’s easy to claim that spearfishing hurts the population far more than angling, but considering that a spearer will take one or two fish and often not spearfish again for a while, and an angler can catch “50-60” fish a day and there are FAR more anglers, the math doesn’t agree with that.

For instance if in one day you have 30 anglers and 10 spearfisherman on a lake (and lets be honest none of us have seen a ratio of 3/1) And each angler caught and released 25 fish, each spear killed 2.

3025=750 2.75% of 750 = 20 dead fish
102=20 = 20 dead fish

And thats assuming each angler releases every fish under the ideal circumstance (no laying it on a ruler, holding it out of the water to take a picture, no tight handling, no tiring it out from a long fight for fun)

While obviously that is an example and there are alot more variables such as untrustworty spear sinking fish, Or an experienced fisherman catching 50-60 a day, day after day, I really think it needs to be thought about statistically.

Cause I may be wrong but I’ve fished Willard, Mantua, UL, Strawberry, Echo, LostCreek, Hyrum, Rockport, Jordanelle, Holmes, DeerCreek, Etc and have MAYBE seen 10 spearfisherman TOTAL in the last few years.

Not saying Either side is truly at fault. I just think that nether is special or killing fewer fish than the other side. I just think there are far more obvious things to blame our skunks on.

… the happy harvester who bring their kids and nieces and nephews “fishing” and is allowed to use each rod and keeps a limit for each child as they play with the rocks…

but i digress, any thoughts?

Intersting article on Fish mortality rates

2

First of all, I think someone who says they catch XX fish, in reality probably has caught less then half of what they say they did.
Utah waters- many or most are a put and take fishery. Treble hooks, cheese hooks get taken in and gut hooked fish if released are going to die.
That said, spear fishers, and I don’t know any, as long as what they do is legal, there’s not much you can do about them.
In my mind, I can’t see a spear fisherman diving and shooting for just one fish. It’s a “sport” to them, and you spend the time driving to a lake, putting on your gear and 5 minutes after you dive you spear your first few fish. Are they going to go home? No catch and release in spear fishing, so you can’t throw a fish that’s not in the slot limit back.
What is the bag limit for spear fishing? Is it the same as angling limits?

Your thread title is a little skewed. 200,000 + anglers compared to maybe a couple thousand spear fishermen statewide? I have no real idea what the actual number of spear fishers are really out there.
Anglers by far impact fisheries, simply because they outnumber spear fishers by 1000 to 1 or so.

3

I think we all impact it but it’s how we have fun. Let’s all be responsible and do our best to take care of this wonderful resource and quit looking for someone to blame. Now let’s get back to fishen stories. Later J

4

I missed where anyone was being blamed for something[:)]
I did pose a question in Cliff’s post. Whatever the limit is on whatever lake, let’s just say two for now, there is a “chance” for a fisher to catch several and release several. Minus the obvious such as gut hook. This "can " be done.
Spear fishing, not gonna happen. So my question was, and as posted by Mojo, do you spear ONLY what you keep, or is there target practice that no one is going to see?

So, by this assumption, I will say, one fisher, one spear fisher, the spear would have more impact, simply because there is no chance of C&R.

I see this as a simple question and answer, no blaming. People adapt through knowledge. Reading the posts of hand catching fish and using wrong fish for bait is a good example.

5

Your question implies that spear fishermen are less ethical that than surface fishermen. (killing or wounding fish with no intention of taking them) Was that your intention or is that what you believe?

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:sunglasses:**I think the point has already been made that on the basis of sheer numbers anglers will impact a fishery far more than spearfishermen. But there is a lot more to it than that. **

**I grew up in southern California and became a diver and spearfisherman in my early teens. To me it was a natural extension of my love of fishing and all things aquatic. My underwater excursions taught me a lot about basic fish habitat and habits. If anything, it also helped instill a greater appreciation for the beauty of the fishes’ environment and the wonders of the fish themselves. **

I have belonged to a couple of dive clubs and have made uncounted dives in both salt and fresh water. I think I can honestly say that virtually all the other serious divers I have known have a greater respect and appreciation for fishkind than the “average” anglers I have known. Even the most ardent spear fishermen generally focus more on getting that one good shot…maybe at a trophy but usually at something that will be better eating. And seldom have I witnessed spearfishermen engaging in a wholesale slaughter of any species except “rough fish”…like carp.

I can’t defend the “average” angler as easily. With the exception of seasoned fisherpersons who have finally gone beyond the competitive fishing stages in their lives, most anglers seem to measure the success of a trip in sheer numbers of fish caught and/or in poundage of fish brought home to show off. I would make a personal guess that fewer than one in ten anglers exercise the same respect for a fishery that most spear fishermen do. When you are in a group of spear fishermen the conversation is more likely to center on the underwater wonders witnessed on the dive…and on the big fish they allowed to swim rather than perforating. The ultimate C&R experience is to simply watch the fish in their natural surroundings, maybe taking a picture, and then storing the memories in your mental database.

**All that being said, there are kill-hungry slobs in all groups of outdoor enthusiasts. We all know about game poachers. Sad and sick. And among anglers there are those who willfully and knowingly violate the laws…just to rack up a body count of dead fish. However, I cannot honestly recall more than one or two situations in which I was aware of a wholesale slaughter of game fish by spear fishermen. **

I think the major source of enmity between anglers and spear fishermen…especially in Utah…is the fact that anglers have a tough time catching the truly big fish on regulation fishing tackle. Whereas the skilled spear fisherman can search out the biggest fish in the lake and harvest them at will. One side of us protests that it unfairly wipes out the biggest fish in the gene pool. The other side (of anglers) is torqued by jealousy. Those awful spearos have stolen that giant walleye we were going to catch…maybe someday.

I respectfully suggest that the spear fishermen’s aggressive concentration on killing big carp has probably produced far greater benefits to some waters than whatever game fish they have removed for consumption.

If we really need targets upon which to vent our wrath for problems with fishing…let’s gang up on the lawless and the poachers…and the bucket bozos. On any given day in Utah there are more fish removed from our waters illegally than the spear fishermen remove in a month…or a year. And really, what is the difference in allowing a spearfisherman to harvest a large fish…at the end of its useful lifespan…and losing hundreds of pounds of illegally caught smaller gamefish to people with no license…fishing with illegal bait and rigs…keeping fish within slot restrictions…or fishing in closed waters?

7

What TD said !!!

8

You cant practice C&R if you spear fish…

just sayin’

9

I think spear anglers get bad rap due to the fiasco a few years ago. Bait, Spear, Fly… were all anglers, we have the same goal of hunting and capturing fish.

That being said who to say one group is doing less or more damage than the other. Obviously Rod & reel anglers are going to have a higher impact due to the higher number of anglers and ease of use of a rod and reel.

Spear angling take allot more specialized equipment not to mention skill then it does to toss a barbie rod in the water. So the the number of spear anglers are much lower than rod and reel but the mortality rate of spear fishing is higher so I think it all balances out.

In my opinion neither group can point the finger at the other we all have an impact on the ecosystem regardless of the fishing method used.

What I read and interpreted was Bass rods was more venting than anything his Oasis, Jordanelle has taken a turn for the worse The bass fishing there has gone to sh!@ and I can see why he would be piss off.

But highly doubt the spear fisherman are the cause in my opinion the higher pressure and habitat are the issues. . That reservoir gets the crap pound out of it year round. Plus every year we have more and more anglers The Utah census stated Heber City is one of the fasted growing cities in the state. So its all relative fix the habitat lower the pressure and Jordanelle will return to becoming a great bass fishery again.

http://bit.ly/MB2k9w

10

I have been veiwing this forum for over a year and finally felt compelled to actually sign up because of this post. I enjoy every type of fishing (salt water and fresh) to include the satisfaction of tying my own flies.

I have been a fisherman and enjoying the fishing lifestyle since I was four years old and will never give it up [;)] …it’s an addiction. Even passed the habit to my four kids.

In 1988 I became a certified Scuba Diver and avid underwater hunter and I can assure you that scuba divers/spear fisherman are very concerned with the quality and condition of the fish they shoot. At least thos that I know. There is some truth to be said about the larger fish not tasting as good in my opinion but what most poeple don’t understand is that when we are under water we can pick and choose what fish we want and can be very selective. We used to say “We fish for fun and Dive to fill the freezer”.

All divers I have ever met seem agree to never shoot a fish that was even remotely close to limit size for fear of size judgement being off because of the mortality rate of 100%. Some states have the right to confiscate your gear for violations and I don’t know anyone willing to loose thier gear for a short fish.:blush: This may help explain why the impression is given that “they only shoot the big ones”. Most good spearfisherman will have ruler marks on the spear gun/spear pole so they know the fish is legal before they shoot.

I beleive the issue is the poachers, those who make the rest of us (divers and fishermen alike) look bad. They disregard the rules and regulations that are for the benefit of the fishery. They are the ones we should all be on the lookout for and be willing to turn them in.

Sadly enough I would have to say a fishermen will impact a lake more for the misshandling of the fish, fighting it to exaustion and not reviving it correctly before letting it go; not wetting your hands before handling it and rubbing off the protective slime; gut hooking the fish and throwing it back bleeding because it’s not legal size; using bait in artificial areas only…etc.

If it is leagal it’s legal, if it is truely impacting the fishery, then push for a change in the rules. Other state have “No game fish” rules for spearfishing. Utah could go that way too, personally I like the options here.

11

I suppose I’ll bite and give my inflation adjusted 2 cents.

Do spear fishermen impact the harvest totals in fisheries as much as “regular” anglers? Heck no. It probably is a drop in the bucket compared hook and liners. Additionally, what is the fuss if they do harvest fish to the legal limit? That is allowed for the rest of us and quite a few anglers do this.

That said, can they impact a certain subset of the fish population? (Say larger bass?) I would say that **is **possible. If they are able to target large bass more efficiently than the average “harvesting” angler, (not bass regulars that usually release all the big fish) then yes, they may have **some **effect on the trophy potential of a fishery. If that is the case, ** the problem isn’t with the spear anglers, but it is an issue with the regulations that allow it. **

Since everyone has been talking about Jordanelle, I suspect that hook and liners have harvested more good sized** **bass out of there than the spearos, but amazingly, I haven’t seen a great deal of harvest from either group last year or previously. Yep, Jordanelle sucks, stay away and leave me to fish there in peace.[;)]

12

I agree that sheer numbers make the answer self evident. Yet each year I read these posts about how spearo’s are killing off and destroying fisheries. I simply wanted to know if there is a difference between mathmatics and truth.

As for the limit when I go out after carp I usually will see dozens of the buglemouths but will only take a couple. Yet often I won’t even take any because just seeing them in there habitat is enough. It’s amazing to watch exactly how they feed, group. How other fish act around each other, you can find stuff out that you would never know from the surface even using the most advanced fish finders.

I have not speared in quite a while, but it really is a beautiful sport.

Just my two cents

13

+1 man.

14

Interesting, You know, If I wasn’t mistaken I’d say you rather enjoy fishing…

Thanks for the great response, it answered many questions I had on it. I love diving just to see what most people don’t. I’ve had countless “AH HA” moments that have impacted my surface angling ability

For example for the longest time I had issues catching anything but a cold from the banks. Then I started diving where I fish and started noticing small things, Like there are absolutely NO fish in alot of my “honey holes” Being able to dive in and learn where that log settled and is holding fish, or that boulder has a bit of a lip to it that a fat cat likes to live…

My best moment was watching a large group of carp feeding without a care for me at all. Watching them feed is one of the only reasons I can catch them proficiently. The way they use their mouths like a vacuum and litterally have your bait in there mouths a second or two. To the way they all stir up the water and eat the small organisms that are sprayed into the air.

I don’t think people realize how beautiful it really is down there for spearos.

15

agreed

16

interesting reply, Thanks!. Didn’t know heber was booming. I agree rods was more just dissappointed period and the spearos happened to be an easy target that day. I’m hoping it gets better there soon. But from the sound of it regs will need changing before that most likely

17

Well first off welcome to the forum! Glad my controvercial post got you to bite [;)]

And I agree with the worry about hitting a limit level fish. I commented on that last year and no joke a guy suggest putting a tape measure against the fish to check before we go for it. The scary thing is he was completely serious.

Hope to hear more from you in the future. Where do you enjoy fishing most? north or south? warm waters or cold?

18

I agree that if spearos were agressive enough and had the numbers they could really hurt a population. But I honestly believe most are like avid anglers and would see they are damaging something and work together to protect the water.

Whats the chance if we go to a spearo forum they are venting about these darn boat guys with their lines of doom destroying Jordanelle…

Heck I for one have never accidently shot anyone with my speargun yet I’ve personnally been caught by a troller. Interesting moment! haha

19

Your question implies that spear fishermen are less ethical that than surface fishermen. (killing or wounding fish with no intention of taking them) Was that your intention or is that what you believe?

WHAT THE HECK did you read? Between the lines maybe…I did not even remotely question ethical, let alone more or less.
You can try to put words in this woman’s mouth but they are not the words coming out…

20

Come on Flygoddess we all know your just starting a conspiracy against the spearos. We all know that it is really the flyfishing that is killing all of our deep lake bass fishing!!! with all those tiny barbless hooks in the corner of the mouth !!!

HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF!!! [:/][:/]