They aren’t going to go upstream very far, but downstream is a given. It takes no effort to go with the flow.
I love it. Cutler’s environment is very similar to Utah Lake in many ways. I think they would thrive there, but add to the fishery. Having the same kind of regs as UL also - no limits, usable as bait. I can think of the grocery harvesters filling buckets of mudcats really benefitting!
As far as the balance - I agree - doesn’t seem like any of the panfish, bass, walleye overpopulate - there’s a lot of “desert” water out there - and the way the white bass school and move - they could be all over.
I think a balance of adding White Bass AND Tiger Musky would really fill out the fishery. Sure the TM’s would be far spread, and that’s great. I think they’d have a pretty full plate with all the carp minnows and fatheads to feast on.
There are indeed a lot of connections into, out of Cutler. So I suppose that would open the Bear River, Little Bear, Logan rivers - are there more?
Can fish pass from above to below Cutler dam? I don’t believe the lower Bear runs into Willard -like J sez. Isn’t it the Weber that feeds into there?
Thanks for attending the meeting Jeff. And for staring the thread. Good input, bound to be differing opinions.
How many of these tirades do we have to go through on this board? Somebody decides they know more than DWR biologists and start lobbying to get a new species put into their backyard waters…just so they can have a new fishy toy.
There is a lot more to biology than “Gee, I sure would like to be able to catch (species) from (lake or stream).” You can’t rationalize your great ideas by making inaccurate comparisons between species and habitats and speculating on what MIGHT happen.
MAYBE is not a good word when it comes to introducing new species into new waters. That is the concept used by our pioneer forefathers when they thought that MAYBE carp would be a good replacement for the declining stocks of trout and suckers in Utah Lake.
**Without specific guarantees of success beforehand there can be only 3 potential outcomes when dumping in a new species. 1. It becomes a resounding success…a good idea. 2. It changes nothing…adding only one more minor player in the ecology. 3. It becomes a disaster…with the new arrival having major negative impact on the other species. **
But, the inability to leave things alone and let DWR take care of the management thing is what has led to so many bucket bozo plantings. Granted, some of them have been “whatevers”. And others have been positive introductions. But there are plenty of others that are downright stupid and problematic.
If anybody wants to suggest adding a new species to a specific water, please do your homework first. Know more than just the name of the species before jumping on the soapbox to promote the planting. And know enough about the specific requirements and habits of the species to be able to accurately project the survivability and potential growth. Wild speculation is not good enough to make radical alterations in any system that is working fine on its own.
If your suggestions have merit, they will be put on the study and review docket. But don’t expect DWR to jump up and dump a couple of truckloads of the new species into your water just because you attend a meeting and voice your suggestions. Some of our current new species and new regulations are the results of years of professional study. And, believe it or not, DWR really does take down all suggestions and DOES have departmental reviews. But they know how to say NO…when it is clearly not in the best interests of the species, the water or the other anglers. Deal with it.
Now Pat - don’t be so harsh. It was a suggestion, and I’m sure not the first time the committee has heard it. It’s not like Skunked is even starting a petition (or grabbing buckets) so much as seeking opinions, and that’s all he’s gotten. We all know OUR opinions aren’t gonna change the management, but our ideas can be taken under consideration.
THEN the appropriate researchers, committees, etc - the biologist that do know more than us couch potatoes… can do THEIR job and apply the studies.
I hope they do. I was encouraged to hear they are actually PLANNING to plant Musky. So that must have already gone through channels.
Bit of a difference I know - a sterile bread vs a highly prolific one.
Bottom line - is I think you’d be jealous if us northerners could post of baskets full of Whitie Whackings Too! [:p]
But honestly - do you consider the White Bass in UL to be a benefit, or a problem? Just curious.
Problem. Stunted. Overpopulated. Predacious. Uncontrollable. What more could you ask for?
**I have fished for all members of the morone genus…stripers, white bass, yellow bass and the hybrid wipers…or sunshine bass as they are known in some parts of the country. I don’t claim to know everything there is to know about them but I have collected a bit of information and experience.
**These species all seem to do better in lakes with size, depth, good clarity and forage. The shallower the lakes, the less food and the shorter the growing season the less well they will do in any given habitat. Most of the best lakes for stripers, whities and wipers have at least 50 foot depths and lots of shad or other abundant forage species. Water clarity is a big issue too. These fish are sight feeders and live by hunting schools fo prey and then slashing into them. **
None of those conditions describes either Utah Lake or Cutler. Shallow murky waters with poor year round food resources result in either poor recruitment (spawn survival) or limited growth opportunities for the survivors…or both.
Utah Lake has good spawning conditions for white bass…several tributaries that have good flows during the spawn period…as well as lots of wave washed rocky shoreline. UL whities have no problem in producing massive numbers of new fry every year. And a large percentage of those young fish go right back into the adult whities…until late in the summer when they grow too large for the average sized (stunted) adult white bass. Ditto for young carp. A heavy glut for about two months and they they turn to fat 6 inchers…too big for anything except big walleyes and big catfish.
The rest of the year the white bass have to subsist on baby bluegills and crappies…and perchlets. Sometimes they pick off a stray fathead minnow or other minor player in the forage parade. But leeches and aquatic insect larvae are all that keep white bass from starving for over half of the average year. Can you imagine having all the steaks, pizza and hamburgers you could eat for 3 to 4 months a year…and then having to make a living by dumpster diving the rest of the year?
In the big southern and midwestern impoundments where white bass (sandies) are common, they have a year-round forage base that includes hordes of threadfin shad, shiners and other “minnows” that are always present and always in edible sizes. They can eat and grow year round. And they get big…up to 5# in some waters.
How do I perceive the white bass in Utah Lake? I love 'em. It was one of the experiments by DWR back in the mid 1900s that worked…maybe too well. It is amazing that they survived as well as they did…considering the poor conditions under which they are forced to survive. But no different than their main predators…the walleyes. It is unbelievable that such a fish of cold, clear, deep waters as the walleye could ever thrive in Utah Lake. But there they are. And they couldn’t do nearly as well without the white bass for forage.
About the only thing that “controls” white bass numbers are natural swings in water levels, natural predation from other species and angler harvest…to a minor extent. Water level fluctuations are the single biggest influence. A poor spawn year will show up for several years into the future. Numbers will drop but sizes will increase…until there are again massive spawns and numbers go up and sizes drop again.
White bass have always been one of the most popular targets in Utah Lake. They are numerous, bite well, fun to catch and they are great table fare. Most regular UL anglers view them as the “fall back” species. If you can’t get a bunch of cats or walleyes you can always count on bringing home enough white bass for a fish fry…or tacos. It is no wonder that anglers would like to have them available in other waters too.
**The big problem for the whities these days is that the feds are trying to restore the June suckers. And those wascally whities have been knowed to slurp up a sucker pup or two…or three…or thousands. That makes them a public enemy that the Junie huggers would rather see eliminated. Ha. Fat chance. **
I for one would be heartbroke if we lost the white bass from Utah Lake. Too much fun and too good eatin’. But I doubt it will ever happen. They are as prolific and as hearty as cockroaches. If Utah ever sustains a direct nuclear hit only those two species will likely remain alive.
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh to Skunkley. Wasn’t intended to be that way. But it just gets so tiresome reading new posts every week about “Why not put a new species in a new lake…just because?” It would be okay if they just drop it there but instead we get these long drawn out threads of pseudo biologists presenting all of the wacko arguments for and against. In reality, the only thing that will EVER come of most such suggestions is that they will be quickly reviewed and found to be bad biology…and then discarded…forever. We may not like it when our own personal pet projects are not run up the flagpole and saluted. But we gotta deal with it.
Yup lots of issues but it would sure be great if it would work. Later J
TD looks like I stepped on your soft spot. I think if you read a little closer you’d see I fully plan on the DWR guys doing their job I simply expressed interest in having WB in Cutler and 3 out of the four gentlemen there seemed to think it was worth looking into as well. Now relax go catch a fish and forget my nasty post. Later J
No personal offense taken and I hope I did not come off too harshly in my reply.
**I definitely picked up on your explanation of the way you presented it and the way they responded. That is their job…to listen and to objectively evaluate all proposals. For the most part they DO listen well and are open to consideration of any subject. **
Howsomever, I also rub shoulders with a few of these guys from time to time and I know how they REALLY feel about some of the more harebrained ideas that they have dumped in their laps. Not saying your idea is in that category, but don’t be surprised if it goes no further than the meeting.
I’m a crotchety old dude with a lot of peeves (soft spots). Don’t take me too seriously. Most other folks don’t.
Now let’s both go fishing. I know where there are some white bass…
Hey Yote looks like I stirred things up even when I didn’t intend too. Well I hope the DWR guys study it out and we get them someday. Well hope your Idaho trip went okay. Guess I got to get more chores done so catch ya later and thanks for the back up. Later J
TD yup ya did seem a little crotchety and close minded as if all ideas are bad. Guess we’ll see whether this one is or not but in the mean time it sounds like a good idea to fish what we have and I guess if it’s not good enough we can always drive to a better spot. Later J
Question is what’s it gonna hurt in a puddle like cutler? That area is man made, full of non native species and it’s the dumping ground of every tributary in the valley. I say pour it on, it would be nice to see something new in there in numbers besides carp, muds, and cats. Sure you will get the ocassional bass, crappie, walleye ect. but in all honesty, what is it going to hurt? I personally would like to see them put muskies in there. It’s a huge area and whatever they put in will either thrive or fall. As far as the June suckers go, I say let em go the way of the dodo, the government spends millions on a fish that has been replaced by carp for a long time. I’d like to know the last time anything was stocked in cutler, it’s been left to populate itsself for a long time, I say give her a facelift!
You claim that Cutler has an abundance of Fat Head minnows. The introduction of WB to Cutler would all but remove them from the lake. Fat Heads cannot withstand the pressure that WB would put on them !! Look at Powell if you want to see the pressure that a predator can put on a forage species. In Powell, Stripers all but wiped out the Threadfin Shad, causing some real major fluctuations in both populations. The introduction of Gizzard Shad to Powell has stabilized the predator/forage relationship, some, but we still have no limit on Stripers to try and limit the number of them !
I don’t recall mentioning fatheads. Cutler in a nutshell is the toilet of the valley. I love that place and in my opinion it needs some attention from the f&g as far as a fishery goes. Whites or, not, that place could use a change.
I don’t recall mentioning fatheads. Cutler in a nutshell is the toilet of the valley. I love that place and in my opinion it needs some attention from the f&g as far as a fishery goes. Whites or, not, that place could use a change.
**I have no personal agendas regarding Cutler…or any other water. My comments were pretty much about the “chuck and chance it” mentality of a lot of anglers. “Hey, let’s dump a few of these in there and see what happens.” Management by messin’ around. **
I agree that it would be pretty difficult to damage the eeek-ology of Cutler. It ain’t purty and it ain’t what you would call a pristine pond. I suspect that by accident or by bucket it has had just about any and all species dumped into it at one time or another. On the positive side it does sustain some species fairly well and provides a good fishing hole for a lot of folks in the valley.
**When it comes to Utah fisheries I believe that you can’t manage the unmanageable. The species list and the sustained populations are less about angler pressure than about food resources and the ups and downs of Mama Nature. **
Yuba is a good example. DWR has virtually no authority to regulate water levels…not even a minimum pool. The power plant and farmers can suck Yuba dry every year if they want to. Most years it doesn’t go that far but whenever there is a poor snowpack…or a drought…the lake drops too low for a good perch spawn and the whole system crashes. Without baby perch there is no food base for any of the other species. Well, some feed on carp fry for a few months…and big northerns can eat larger perch, walleyes and carp. But the bottom line is that there are 5-10 year cycles on Yuba that result in major drawdowns and crashes. DWR has nothing to do with it but they get the blame. You can’t manage the unmanageable.
I have no personal feelings one way or another about species experimentation on Cutler. Go head on 'til your head hurts if you wanna lobby for white bass, tiger muskies, wipers…or even flathead cats. Maybe DWR will shelve some of their other projects that are currently getting faster approvals and the funding to put them together. Don’t count on it.
Maybe DWR will shelve some of their other projects that are currently getting faster approvals and the funding to put them together. Don’t count on it.
TD now there is a point that I understand priorities of where the funding goes. In that case Cutler is probably the bottom of the list always has been. Like someone already mentioned I think the last stocking was channel cats in the early 80’s. Walleye showed up but I think they are from Idaho stocking Oneita. So bottom line I’m not holding my breathe waiting. So just curious, if a project were acceptable biologically and only lacked funding to make it happen. Can Sportsmans groups provide that funding outside of the current channels? You know bake sale for whities type thing? Ya I know I need to let this thing die. Have a great day TD and I hope someday to get to fish with ya and I promise I won’t bring up Cutler WB. Later J
Nothing personal or hostile betwixt us. I hope. We both pretty much know how the game is played even if we have different hopes for different outcomes. And for what it’s worth, I WOULD like to know how white bass would fare in Cutler. Might just add a new dimension…or not.
Can private interests assist with funding special projects? You betcha. (Sorry, Sarah) There are several anglers’ associations in Utah that have promoted and helped fund programs like adding structure to lakes, restocking non-trout species (perch in Yuba) and in purchasing access rights to private waters.
If it came down to a matter of funding…after white bass were otherwise approved for Cutler…I am sure that DWR would welcome some “budget enhancement” from private sources. The problem is that (so far) there are no big nationwide organizations like “white bass unlimited” to provide the support numbers likely necessary.
DWR is always working on a tight budget…with ten places for every dollar that they are given by the state fund. It would be interesting to see what might happen if they were suddenly showered with a surplus of funds and had to find places to put the money or lose it.
Don’t misunderstand. My tirade was not so much directed at you as the notion that it is simple to make major changes…and that anybody with a wild and wonderful idea has a shot at getting whatever new species they want in any given body of water. It is actually a cool thing that we can have such discussions on this board and that most folks can interact peaceably…with the agreement that we may agree to disagree…without starting a thermonuclear war over a minor difference of opinion. We have a continuous stream of new members coming aboard…including a lot of folks new to Utah and even new to fishing. I am sure they enjoy being able to watch from the sidelines and soak up the information and opinions that are aired here. We may not always be right but sooner or later we DO identify most of the questions.
Peace and chill.
I would like to see the whites come north from one toilet to another…
No hostilities whatsoever and I agree it is great to be able to have a discussion. Best part is with this method we should be able to think things over a little before we send it and that can take some of the emotion out of our comments. However sometimes I hit send too soon and I’m sorry if I’ve done that. But no worries about the conversation that has been on going. I’ll be begging for help again soon. Later J
Fishing means never having to say you’re sorry.
We can’t always control how we feel, but we do have some measure of control over what we say. Too bad some folks hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to just let 'er rip and say whatever comes to mind. A lot of that going around.