I don’t know about you but in the last five years I have only been checked one time in Utah..Now think how many times you have been checked..
Creel survey??? Are you for reel??
I don’t know about you but in the last five years I have only been checked one time in Utah..Now think how many times you have been checked..
Creel survey??? Are you for reel??
Doesn’t that depend on where you fish, and whether or not a survey is being done?
I was checked EVERY TIME I fished Minersville this year. However, I was never checked while fishing Newcastle. Ironically, the DWR was conducting a survey at Minersville, but they weren’t at Newcastle. Coincidence?
Cliff – do you harvest any bass? I’m not pointing my finger at you – I’m just curious.
At one time, the Provo River had this same issue and discussion. Too many small fish. Anglers screaming for a slot to protect those mid-sized fish so that they could grow to be big. Problem: NOBODY was harvesting ANY fish. What good is a slot if nobody harvests those fish out of the slot?
Every time I have gotten off the water this year at Jordanelle there has been an officer doing a survey. I assume he’s targeting people that look like they are fishing. One guy was cleaning a 14" bass at the cleaning station and he took a scale sample. They are doing tests to find out the size of the bass compared to the age and gathering information about angler catch rates. I’ve done fairly well up there this year, enough to keep me going back all summer but there are a lot of small fish. I’ve kept a couple limits of small fish but “survey says!” not many anglers keep small bass and there are too many of them.
Like I have said in the past, I do keep bass from the bigger lakes but not from the smaller ones like Jordanelle or Deer creek they are too close to the bigger cities and get way to much fishing..
Like I have said in the past, I do keep bass from the bigger lakes but not from the smaller ones like Jordanelle or Deer creek they are too close to the bigger cities and get way to much fishing..
Which was the exact same answer that flyfishermen on the Provo River gave to why they didn’t harvest the over-abundant brown trout. The problem with this line of thinking is that the majority of the fish being caught are by those same anglers that won’t harvest any because they think everyone else is keeping the fish.
If nobody keeps any, then why in the world have a slot limit??? And, what good would it do??
What are these bigger lakes that are bigger than Jordanelle and Deer Creek? I guess you mean Powell – which is ironic because that’s the place that you should probably release a few black and green bass!
You fish Powell a lot. You most likely understand why Wayne promotes harvest (and kill) of stripers. It isn’t much different in many lakes with other bass. If you don’t thin the population, you end up with too many fish, which leads to a crash.
I’m glade you still know it all..
He even has a decoder ring.
[crazy]
He does know how to use spell check too.
Bassrods, I’m sure growing up around biologists gives PBH a little more insight on the local fish species than most of us have, including you.
I also agree. It fits with my previous post …
http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=841941#841941
… and coments at the RAC regarding mercury and my suggestions for encouraging lower mercury consumption for good health by eating more of smaller fish.
Current limits encourage eating older, larger fish which have accumulated more mercury in favor of a larger meal. It also places a greater demand on the system because those fish ate a lot of smaller fish to become older and larger.
Limits should be greater for smaller fish.
I also agree. It fits with my previous post …
http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=841941#841941
… and coments at the RAC regarding mercury and my suggestions for encouraging lower mercury consumption for good health by eating more of smaller fish.
**Current limits encourage eating older, larger fish **which have accumulated more mercury in favor of a larger meal. It also places a greater demand on the system because those fish ate a lot of smaller fish to become older and larger.
Limits should be greater for smaller fish.
I missed something then. Where is the encouragement to eat larger fish? I hear Mercury in fish I think smaller portions, as I would imagine others think.
He may?? Or may not??
He says that the food is gone?? All the bass look in good shape that I have seen, what about you??
If they are in good shape and not skinny like the stripers or stunted or starving fish I have seen to me that means they need time to grow..
On other waters that this has been the same and the old Fish&Game put changes in limits or size the bass grew bigger and bigger in the past.. Jordanelle is one but in the past Deer creek had bigger bass till the dwr changed the size limit to what it is now..
East canyon had lots of big bass till they got fished out, now all that it has is mostly small bass..
Slot limits may or may not bring them back but till the dwr shows me something other then what they are doing now or that I am wrong I stand by what I have seen in the past..
Hine sight works at times..
Of course, I can avoid mercury from fish by not eating them or get less by eating less as in your smaller portions suggestion. But, that is not the equivalent of my choice to eat smaller fish.
Fish is a healthy food. Though mercury is poison, I can get much less by being selective in eating smaller fish even with large portions. Here’s why:
A pound of fish meat from small fish contains much less mercury than a pound of fish meat from a big fish that eats the small fish because of bioacculation.
The mercury in the environment, perhaps at very low levels, is taken up by tiny living things. Small living things are eaten by larger living things and those are eaten by larger fish and so on.
Each time the mercury of all the food is concentrated into what becomes the next food for something bigger. The ones at the top of the food chain are gaining all of the mercury of the smaller fish it eats. It takes many pounds of small fish as food for a big fish for it to increase it’s weight by just one pound, so that pound of fish meat from a big fish contains the contaminants of all those smaller fish it ate to bioaccumulate to a considerably much greater amount.
Numbers and concept in the following example is for a conceptual mathematical demonstration of the magnitude of biocumulation only as it doesn’t contain real data nor does it account for the percentage of toxins that aren’t absorbed nor the percentage that can be eliminated.
If ten pounds of plankton are consumed by growing bugs, then that might make only one pound of bugs. Growing minnows eat the bugs and it might take ten pounds of bugs to make just one pound of minnows.
In the above over simplified example of just the math of bioaccumulation, already mercury is concentrated a thousand times!
But, we don’t eat minnows (and I haven’t, yet …). Minnows are eaten by larger fish. If ten pounds of minnows are needed to make one pound of larger fish, then the bioaccumulation of mercury at this point in this rough mathematically illustrative yet not actual example is ten thousand times! Still these are small fish.
The big fish we often catch and eat are at the top of the food chain and can have concentrated mercury a million times or more!
He says that the food is gone?? All the bass look in good shape that I have seen, what about you??
I NEVER said the food was gone. I do claim that the population is too high and that fish may be stunted (ie: reaching sexual maturity at sizes less than desirable).
I haven’t claimed to know the answer. I have just given suggestions as to why one method (slot limit) vs. another (liberal harvest) may or may not work. If you don’t understand what the problem is, it makes it hard to fix.
Well isn’t a slot limit of 14" to 20" a way to let the fish that can grow bigger grow and still let the fisherman take the smaller ones and also let every one have a chance at a wall hanger.. WOW sounds like a win win for all..
What and how long is the DWR going to take??What are they doing??
What would you do to make the fishing better??
I would love to work on anything the DWR has going..
I would like them to show us how and why the slot would not work, I will help them in any way I can..
But until then I think we as fisherman have rights to make any suggestions we think will help..
Clif…
At the RAC Meeting last week you asked me why you haven’t been invited to take part in meetings in the past and how you could participate in the future. I said that you have been biased and closed minded and, I would be happy to have you participate if you could be more open minded in the future. This is not it! I indicated that we have some preliminary age/growth from Pelican Lake and that it looks like Pelican is suffering from an extreme lack of harvest. The bass and bluegill are out of balance…1:1 instead of 1:8 and we are finding 9 year old largemouth to be 9.5 inches long. They look healthy in all other regards except they are only about 1/2 as long as they should be. ALL of the year classes that we have looked at so far from Pelican are looking the same, 1/2 the length they should be. I asked you a hypothetical question…We have taken scales from smallmouth bass from Jordanelle Reservoir that we will age this winter. Right now we have now idea what age the various smallmouth bass are but we soon will have that information. My question to you was hypothetically…If the data came back and it indicated that lack of harvest was the issue at Jordanelle Reservoir would you support a different regulation than is currently on Jordanelle. I believe you said NO! I also tried to discuss the information from a 12 month creel that was specific to bass harvest and you let me know that your personal experience is more accurate than a scientifically designed 12 month creel survey. You indicated that you didn’t believe the creel survey either.
This winter we will be working with various bass folks and our regional biologists to discuss bass management. This last year we initiated a major effort to collect additional age/growth information from our major bass waters in Utah. We have the capability to “model” the results and explore the effects of different limits, including slot limits.
As I told you last week.. Slot limits are only effective IF you have extremely high mortality (either fishing or natural or a combination of the two). If you have a slot limit on a water with low mortality (fishing/natural) you will only further damage the fishery.
From the last creel on Jordanelle (2012). Angler harvest is very minimal. I haven’t seen the final report yet but I believe that I remember only roughly 50 bass were harvested over 12 inches in 2012. I believe there were roughly 250 bass harvested overall in 2012.
Likewise in Pelican Lake in 2010’s 12 month creel there was a release rate of 87% and only 828 largemouth were harvested total (S.E=272).
Drew Cushing
Thanks for the infor Drew. The stats speak for themselves. Looks like there needs to be more harvest no?
We are still summarizing the age and growth. At least on Pelican the first information that we did get back indicates that we need more harvest. We will set up meetings this fall/winter to discuss the findings when they become final.
Drew
Great! Thanks for all that you guys do at the DNR. I hope that when the final results come all of us will be able to accept the decisions that come out of it.
Out of all the times I have fished Jordanelle in the last 5 years I have only been checked 4 times, but I fish week days most of the time and leave the weekends to the power squads..But in the last 3 years when I have left the water and seen someone at the cleaning station all most all had bass one or more..
I am more then willing to hear what you want to say and help you out, but this is the USA and we all have our right to say what we think is right..
Pelican is one water and I told you that I may have only fished it 3 times in two years and don’t fish it cause of the small fish..
The study you want to do will you let me help??
Are you willing to keep an open mind on each lake??
If it shows that a slot limit will help will you help to change the laws on those lakes or will it take years to act on??
How many lakes does the DWR plain to study and how long is it going to take??
I would like you to show me and others what we need to do to get lakes like Jordanelle, Deer creek, East canyon and others to get back to having bigger fish of all kinds, and I for one is willing to help..
I am more then willing to hear what you want to say and help you out, but this is the USA and we all have our right to say what we think is right..
You certainly have earned the right to speak your mind. But it doesn’t make you right.
I’d like to answer a couple of your questions for you:
The study you want to do will you let me help??
Can the general angling public tell you “no”?
Are you willing to keep an open mind on each lake??
The DWR has a job to do. They need to do what’s right, not what’s popular. They want to improve fisheries and I firmly believe they will try. It’s the general public that needs to keep an open mind.
If it shows that a slot limit will help will you help to change the laws on those lakes or will it take years to act on??
The DWR has to play by the rules too. So, if a change is necessary I would imagine that the DWR would hold some public meetings, attempt to get the general public on board, go through the RAC process and then get the WB’s buy-off. It’s no different than a change you might want.
How many lakes does the DWR plain to study and how long is it going to take??
This is an ongoing effort on every water that fisheries biologists manage. It is never ending. It is always changing. Our fisheries managers are monitoring waters all across the state in a constant effort to keep our favorite past-time in the best possible shape, always hoping to make improvements.
I would like you to show me and others what we need to do to get lakes like Jordanelle, Deer creek, East canyon and others to get back to having bigger fish of all kinds, and I for one is willing to help..
Education. Never stop learning, and never be too stubborn to learn something new. Unfortunately, things change, and often times as fisheries mature (especially bass fisheries in utah) they decline. You cannot keep a “new” reservoir new forever. New reservoirs historically have a boom early in their lives. They cannot always sustain that initial rise. But, if we are willing to learn and adapt and allow our fisheries managers to do their jobs properly, we can keep these fisheries as great fisheries. But we have to be willing to be open to change. Never stop learning.