Here is an article for PBH and Wormandbobber. And the other ECO guys.
TS
I appreciate the link. First time I’ve ever been called an ECO guy. Hopefully that isn’t considered a personal attack, because those are against the rules!
For whatever it is worth, I think the June Sucker program has some serious problems. The biggest problem is simply proving that that the June Sucker is in fact an endangered species. Is the June Sucker really a distinctly separate species from the Utah Sucker? Or, are they one and the same?
Eco guy. I like it. I wonder if Noah Greenwald from the Center for Biological Diversity would agree with your assessment of me? I doubt it…
Hey…you tryin’ ta start sumpin’?
**Hope the Junies can read the directions to their new “lovenest”. **
I’ll bite…
Man, I have a hard time with these june suckers.. Why can’t they just say “We are going to lose these suckers, there’s nothing we can do about it” And then Blame it on something like the Mormons Pioneers put carp in the lake and it took away their base forage " or something like that.. “It happened 200 years ago, and we can’t change history”.
I really just never can grasp why some dumb little sucker is worth so much money, effort and inconvenience to so many people. IT’S A SUCKER! You cut them up and feed other fish with them. If this one dies off.. THERE’S MORE SUCKERS, they just feed a little lower in the water column than their June cousins..
Maybe they could make a new lake somewhere and say “No Fishing! This is the home of the june sucker which we saved from extinction”
Then when national politicians or environmental groups come to town, they can take them to the lake, and show them that they saved the june sucker from extinction!
It’s not like it’s the do-do bird and man is finding and killing all of them for fun and sport.. Mother Nature is taking over and killing these fish, I say, if she wants em.. let her have em…
Sure it is sad to lose a species, but is it worth millions and millions of tax payer dollars to save? Seems like there are many different places that the money would be better suited to be spent (or wasted) .
Obviously, I am missing something… right?
[reply]Man, I have a hard time with these june suckers.. Why can’t they just say “We are going to lose these suckers, there’s nothing we can do about it” And then Blame it on something like the Mormons Pioneers put carp in the lake and it took away their base forage " or something like that.. “It happened 200 years ago, and we can’t change history”. [/reply]
Because there IS something we can do about it…
[reply]I really just never can grasp why some dumb little sucker is worth so much money, effort and inconvenience to so many people. IT’S A SUCKER! You cut them up and feed other fish with them. If this one dies off.. THERE’S MORE SUCKERS, they just feed a little lower in the water column than their June cousins.. [/reply]
Maybe because they are an indicator species and they indicate that the whole ecosystem is messed up…so, by helping the endangered june sucker from extinction, we are helping heal the whole ecosystem…which, in turn, also benefits us as humans and all the other fishes that are within that ecosystem.
[reply]Maybe they could make a new lake somewhere and say “No Fishing! This is the home of the june sucker which we saved from extinction” [/reply]
Ignorance, man, ignorance. You see…this is what is most disturbing. People come on these forums and make emotional responses without having even educated themselves on the subject. The fact is that there already is a lake like this…
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It’s not like it’s the do-do bird and man is finding and killing all of them for fun and sport.. Mother Nature is taking over and killing these fish, I say, if she wants em.. let her have em…[/reply]
No, it is exactly like the do-do bird…man is responsible for their demise; not mother nature.
[reply]Sure it is sad to lose a species, but is it worth millions and millions of tax payer dollars to save? Seems like there are many different places that the money would be better suited to be spent (or wasted) .
Obviously, I am missing something… right?[/reply]
Yeah…I definitely think you are missing a lot. IN fact, saving the June sucker ecosystem is something so valuable that we should be doing more to protect it…
I agree. This is an extremely slippery slope to argue against fighting for the June Sucker. What fish do we “write off” next? Where do you draw the line? Fighting for the fish points to our duty to be more responsible fisherman and outdoorsmen/women.
I think if we all had the attitude of, “It’s just a _______, let them die,” then we’ve lost the point of being sportsmen.
I’m not trying to point fingers, just trying to add my 2 cents.
June suckers taste like chicken.
I agree with you worm and bobber. That attitude of we can do without any species shows a lack of respect for every living species. I think Aldo Leopold said it best when he talked about living in harmony with the land. Thats been along time ago and people still don’t seem to understand the delicate balance that exists in an ecosystem. The truth is we our the species that aren’t a part of any of these ecosystems. Not only are we the new kid on the block but we have also become the neighborhood bully. I wish we could learn how to appreciate what we have. Just my 2 cents worth gshorthair
Nah. More like spotted owl. But not as good as bald eagle.
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Ignorance, man, ignorance. You see…this is what is most disturbing. People come on these forums and make emotional responses without having even educated themselves on the subject. The fact is that there already is a lake like this…[/reply]
First off-
Thanks for your input. Do you really think that I don’t know that the June sucker is endemic to Utah Lake and the Provo River?
Secondly, let me clarify…I don’t want the fish to become extinct… I am just saying where do you draw the line between ethics and economics.
Without millions of dollars being thrown at this little fish, there is no way it will survive… IN UTAH LAKE…That’s my point, although it is their native lake.. There is no way they can survive there. Why not move them somewhere else where they will naturally flourish? Or does that mess up the eco-system all over again? Because, the fish isn’t extinct now, but because he is flourishing in a non-native land.. the earth will now wobble on it’s rotation?
Do you know what % population of fish in utah lake are June Suckers? It’s WAY less than 1%. I have read some estimates that it is less than 1000 fish
Do you know what their largest threat to extinction is? I’ll give you a hint.. Their lateral line perks up when it hears the diesel engine churning on the shore for the stocking truck that’s full of June suckers . (side note: I wonder if you leave your diesel truck idling next to you while you are fishing if your will catch more fish in Utah Lake. I am sure those fish have a Pavlovian response established already. It might be worth a shot!)
How many native fish remain in Utah lake?
How many were there originally?
why are people not also calling out for the return of the other native fish? Is it possibly because they exist in other lakes?.. Well, Maybe the June sucker should as well.
Nobody wants to lose a species of fish, I would feel saddened at the loss of a species. However, the damage for this fish has been going on for literally >120 years. Maybe it’s about time we figured out, their home has been invaded, and it’s time to move.
Utah lake is FULL of predators that love to eat those little suckers!
How are you going to stop the walleye, catfish, white bass, small-mouth bass, and of coarse, the common carp from popping these guys like popcorn at the movie theater?
I understand the frustration of not being able to have a fish in its native lake. But, they are too far removed, How can they make a comeback? Honestly, is it possible?
They are never going to roetenone that lake… it’s 96K+ acres! (plus, doing this will kill the junies that are there)
**you said “Because there IS something we can do about it…” **
OK.. What is it?
Personally, I think that they already are functionally extinct(if they stay in Utah Lake). I am interested in how you say this problem can be fixed. You have an army of less than 1000 fish going against literally millions of fish.
Extinction is a natural part of a species, it just usually takes ~100 thousand years.
I have read that only one in a thousand species that have existed remain today.
I am saying that sadly, maybe the june is going to be one of those…So, why spend millions and millions on a battle that will MAYBE save a species of fish, when we could spend millions and millions on cancer research or something like that.
Right now, I see the June sucker recovery efforts as Very, Very expensive natural fish food. Something has to change. Maybe the new “lovenest” will work.. until they run back into the lake and that evasive walleye I am trying my darnedest to catch, devours them.
Maybe we should start calling them “Manna Suckers” Instead of June Suckers. I would like that.
We’ll start referring to them as manna suckers.
Can you agree with me on that?
It’s like saying "I know they are trying to make a comeback for them.. but really, they’re just food from heaven (well, I guess it’s the DWR.. Close.) for the predators of the lake. What say ye?
I thought I read somewhere thay they were trying to establish a population of June suckers in Mona Res. Can anyone verify?
They have quietly planted Junies in more than a couple of spots. Mona is one of them. That is why they are keeping water in it these days…not for the other species.
Also, they have been planted in Red Butte reservoir, which is not open to fishing and where they are not hassled by predators.
They are also being maintained in the Springville hatchery, since they are not affected by whirling disease.
You are right we need to save the June sucker…
I need bait for cat fishing…
If you want to save that fish you pay for what it costs and we’ll all be happy…
Spotted Owl, June Sucker, Bald Eagle…
all yummy!
GO HUG A TREE. YOU AND AL GORE. notice ya dont here anything out of that fat pice of dung in the winter?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but humans are a part of the ecosystem. It’s just that we have the power to impact the ecosystem to a greater degree due to technological advances. Think of the word “wilderness” and how it’s always rhetorically constructed as “pristine” and untouched by humans. Native Americans are often seen as almost a part of the wilderness and lived in harmony with it. Fact is, long before North America was colonized by Europeans, native americans altered and impacted the land to the greatest extent they could. The whole notion of wilderness endorsed by ecocentric thought and theory is that humans don’t belong and need to be kept away or possibly sacrificed for the sake of plants, animals, and the greater environment. You are right about the delicate balance though. There is a need to interact sustainably with the environment. However trying to construct an natural environment without humans in it is problematic for humans because that too much self sacrifice. Well at least for me. I’m not willing to sacrifice my life or even personal pleasure for the sake of reconstructing a pristine natural environment without humans. I recycle, and do my share but I will always remain somewhat anthropocentric. I want to keep my walleyes, bass, and panfish in utah lake. They can eat as many june suckers as they want.
When I said we weren’t part of the ecosystems I was referring to the european settlers. The native Americans respected the land and the species they shared it with. I really think that we could do alot more to slow down the impact that we leave on the land. We depend on it for the same basic things as any other species. When a species disappears it should be a signal to us that the ecosystems we depend on aren’t working like they used to. I know that there is no going back but I wish we would slow down. gshorthair
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**you said “Because there IS something we can do about it…” **
OK.. What is it?
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For starters, we can start cleaning up Utah Lake. One of the major issues with Utah Lake is simply polution. We can also work on water issues. How many streams that historically emptied into Utah Lake (helping to keep water temps lower) no longer reach the lake? There is significant benefits to leaving water in streams vs. removing it all for irrigation use.
There’s two things. Tubedude and someone else mentioned that the DWR is trying to establish some populations of Junies in other lakes as well. There’s a third thing. We can keep going if you’d like.
Waljustia – you keep mentioning these millions of dollars being spent. Is that money coming from your pocket? Is it somehow affecting your standard of living? Personally, I don’t see an issue with the money being spent on them. Consider: anything done to improve the June Suckers will also improve EVERY OTHER SPECIES of sportfish in Utah Lake. How is that a bad thing?
TroutSlayer – is this what you had in mind for this thread? I appreciate you starting it.
I repeatedly read complaints that the money spent on the June sucker is “wasted”. I disagree. What is the program doing?
Here are a few examples.
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The program recently obtained control over Hobble creek and the land west of I-15 with a goal of improving the habitat for possible sucker spawning. The land around the creek is included. The habitat will be enhanced for fish, as well as waterfowl, upland game, and nongame species. The public will be allowed to fish and hunt here without worries about NO TRESPASSING SIGNS appearing like they did around Lincoln beach. The improved habitat will enhance game fish spawning too. Would someone please tell me how that is a “waste”! There will be improvements in Hobble creek upstream of I-15 too. As a Springville resident, I like improvments to my town.
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Pollution control around the lake. Maybe some of you prefer the creosote flavor of fish flesh of the Geneva days, but I prefer clean water and unseasoned fish myself.
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Improved river flows. Improved river flows used for the suckers will usually improve the river fisheries involved. Aw shucks, that only benefits the fly fishing crowd. (Just kidding)
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Carp control. It is a shame that the PCB thing derailed the plans to commercially harvest vast quantities of these nasties. Currently, the lake has 90% of the fish biomass consisting of carp. If somehow, the percentage could be lowered, to say 50%, the biomass “gap” would be be made up by something. It won’t be June suckers, it will be with GAME FISH.
As has been mentioned, the sucker program does have some substantial difficulties. It is not a slam dunk that success will occur. However, saying that the efforts are a waste is shortsighted IMO. If the program is unsavory to some as it is named, consider renaming the efforts as the " Utah lake game fish and recreational enhancement program".
saveing the june sucker? well maybe some day it might happen. i dont think it will be in U-lake tho. keep the specis is a good thing any way ya look at it. a smaller lake in a more controled area would have a much better chance of doing the job. U-Lake has been dumped on and in for so long the water and lake it’s self is not what it was or ever will be again..
on the flip side i like the effert going into U-Lake to cleen it up and kill the carp. this can only make it a better fishery! years from now i would like to see clean clear water in the lake.
so i say if putting all that money in the lake will improve the lake and all the fish (but the carp) then way would any fishermen have problem with a effert to clean it up?