Who knows, maybe they will let us use 5 tip-ups and live bait! That would put a hurt on Mr Pike and Wiley Walleye all winter and I know I wouldn’t want to be catching many of those Pesky Perch!
Whoa! must have dozed off there for a minute, had a dream.[:)]
Tubedude – I appreciate your post. You did a VERY good job with it.
I spoke with Richard yesterday on the phone. He told me that he had received 0 phone calls from anglers since Pat posted his phone number. In the past I have posted Richard’s phone number as well, with very few fishermen actually using it. Unfortunately, I feel like the majority of people that frequent these forums would rather complain behind a keyboard than make a phone call and actually discuss and, heaven forbid, learn something!
Again, nice job Pat.
Thanks. I appreciate your appreciation.
Welcome back.
My, oh, my, what a little info and study is worth!
Refreshing!
Thanks TD for the effort and intel. Very informative…and interesting.
Now all you guys who tried to assasinate me 6 days ago, you still as sour on the DWR as you were a week ago?
The boys in brown KNOW the facts, and ARE trying their darndest to manage as best they see fit. Prime example right here, thanks again Tube.
Got yer back, buddy.
**I spent some more time on the phone yesterday with Drew Cushing and have been given some fantastic input on new things that are coming…soon and in the future. Part of the understanding we reached was that Drew and maybe some of the other DWR folks will post more often on BFT, to keep us up to speed on these things. **
Sad to say, but in the past we have not been too nice to the “guys in brown”. Whenever they have made an effort to offer info, they have been attacked. I gave Drew the assurance that our current “user friendly” (moderated) format should help minimize that. But, both Drew and Richard were quick to assure me that they readily admit they are not always right and they do make mistakes. So, they are open to criticism, as long as it doesn’t get too nasty and personal.
How about a couple of teasers? Can you envision a new warm water hatchery online as soon as funding can be arranged to finish the deal? Can you envision a tiger muskie hatchery in our own backyard? Can you envision mass production of wipers, with the potential for putting them in more waters with rough fish problems? Can you envision a more “proactive” DWR that can quickly assess the need for changes…and get them done in less than the two year RAC process?
I am extremely encouraged by the info that Drew was able to share. Nothing is going to happen with the flick of a switch, but there is greater awareness on (almost) all levels of the Division that change is needed to be more responsive to anglers.
On the flip side, DWR folks are perplexed at the seeming indifference of anglers when it comes to voicing opinions or showing up at meetings. The different hunting groups turn out in force every time there is an opportunity to speak up. Of course, we have had some disappointments, as anglers, but maybe it is time to get more active and to quit just accepting what we are handed and then griping about it.
Whatcha think?
Thank you for the tremendous amount of information on Yuba! You have answered many questions I have been asking myself and others about the Yuba fishery. I am going to save this post for later reference.
Also thanks to all who have contributed to the post. Those contributions are also enlightening.
I hope there is a walleye workshop this Spring! I will attend if one is scheduled.
You??? Interested in walleyes? What a surprise!
I am thinking that it might be a good idea to split up the sessions into a “classroom” (in Salt Lake area) and then “on the water” (at Yuba). I am also thinking that a preseason session, right about iceout and then a followup just before the magic “post spawn” period in June would help maximize the overall education and effectiveness.
Will continue discussions with DWR and set up some potential venues and dates.
I think that the walleye spawn in may in Yuba, but its been so long sense I fished when the walleye are spawning there I could be wrong…
If the DWR does what they say it will be nice, only time will tell for sure…
[reply]
** Part of the understanding we reached was that Drew and maybe some of the other DWR folks will post more often on BFT, to keep us up to speed on these things. **
…
**On the flip side, DWR folks are perplexed at the seeming indifference of anglers when it comes to voicing opinions or showing up at meetings. The different hunting groups turn out in force every time there is an opportunity to speak up. **
Whatcha think?[/reply]
Well…you asked!
First, concerning DWR personell spending more time on forum boards:
I don’t like it. Just go and read some of the past threads on enforcement issues. What’s the biggest complaint fishermen have about the DWR’s lack of enforcement? Not enough personnel in the field! We constantly want our special waters watched more closely by the DWR. Now we’re going to ask those same people we want in the field more, to spend more time on the internet chatting? I don’t like it. If we, as a group of fishermen, want to hear from the DWR on specific topics, let’s arrange for a meeting or presentation. Asking the DWR to waste time chit-chatting on fishing forums seems like a waste to me!
Second, concerning fishermen organizing and working together as a group:
Good luck. Fishermen are too split amongst themselves. Bait vs fly. Wet vs dry. Hook-em-n-cook-em vs CPR. Stream vs lake. Bass vs trout. Walleye vs perch. Native vs invasive. Orivs vs simms. Spiderman vs Ugly stick.
Until fishermen can learn to work together for a common goal, we’ll NEVER be as successful as hunters with the RAC process. Never.
But put aside the “specialty” fishing groups, and for some reason fishermen still don’t attend RAC meetings or participate in fishing related issues. Again, we’d all rather complain anonymously behind a keyboard.
Drew is a great guy. He’s got some great ideas. Ideas can sometime be difficult to put into production.
Can I envision a Tiger Musky hatchery in our backyard? Not really. Why? It takes two things to create a tiger musky. We have one: Pike. We don’t have the other, Muskellunge. Where are we going to raise Musky? In a hatchery with cement raceways? Nope. It won’t work. In order to raise Musky for a brood source, we need a lake. A pretty big lake. A lake that can support Musky. This is a big challenge. It’s one that I hope comes to happen. It’s also one that I fear is further out than anyone wants to admit.
I’ve rambled enough. Anyone else have any thoughts?
**The spawn is different in different lakes, depending on water temps and daylight hours. In past years, they spawn in Yuba anytime from mid march through the first of May, with April being an average midpoint. **
The post spawn feeding cycle begins within a couple of weeks of the end of spawning and usually goes for a couple of months, or until water temps get higher than the walleyes are comfortable. But then they don’t stop eating, they just are more active at night.
I agree with everything you say. However I would like to add that the UDWR fisheries folks need to take the time and effort to inform the public as to what is going on with the great fisheries in Utah. That is part of each employees job description. There are a tremendous number of people who thumb through this website in order to find out what is going on.
The UDWR is closer now than it has ever been in the past to realizing a warm water hatchery. We actually own property with lots of acreage and artisian warm water springs. This has all come about recently. We have tested the water quality and it came back clean. The UDWR will be doing design work for a series of “ponds” to hold both northern pike and true muskie brood stock. We have already performed the health certification on Recapture Reservoir for northern pike and we are busy working with the Game and Fish in Nebraska and our own Department of Agriculture for the importation of true muskies. Due to the fact that we own the property we can properly secure the fish. The water supply is enough to start thinking about other fish species as well but we need to take it one step at a time.
Lastly I totally agree that the angling public is really segmented and divorced from one another. I made the point recently that I would like to live long enough to see the angling public become as passionate as the bear hunters. Folks either against or for bear hunting are the most passionate group that I am aware of. If anglers could come together as a united voice… WOW!
Drew
First, concerning DWR personnel spending more time on forum boards:
I don’t like it. Just go and read some of the past threads on enforcement issues. What’s the biggest complaint fishermen have about the DWR’s lack of enforcement? Not enough personnel in the field! We constantly want our special waters watched more closely by the DWR. Now we’re going to ask those same people we want in the field more, to spend more time on the internet chatting? I don’t like it. If we, as a group of fishermen, want to hear from the DWR on specific topics, let’s arrange for a meeting or presentation. Asking the DWR to waste time chit-chatting on fishing forums seems like a waste to me!
I disagree that a DWR presence is a waste of time here. Getting the general fishing public to understand how the system works is a product of educating the general fishing public through public forums such as this. And the people at DWR that would be involved in that education process will NOT be the same DWR people involved in law enforcement. So we really won’t be asking the same people we want in the field more, to spend more time on the internet chatting? We are asking the biology and management folks to educate us. At least that’s the way I see it.
[reply]
I disagree that a DWR presence is a waste of time here.
… we really won’t be asking the same people we want in the field more, to spend more time on the internet chatting? We are asking the biology and management folks to educate us. At least that’s the way I see it.[/reply]
I can see your point, but I still disagree. Does the angling public believe that the biologists and management folks need not spend more time in the field? Should they be spending time on the internet chatting?
Email isn’t much different than these boards. Think about the progression of a question raised on a forum (or email). A DWR person replies with an answer. That answer generates more questions. More answers. More questions. discussion. more discussion. more questions. more answers. argument. agreement. another question. another answer…
This chain can continue to grow, and grow, and grow. How much time does it take for a DWR person to answer a question either through email or a chat forum? That time might be well spent, but at what expense?
Education of the angling public is extremely important. It (obviously) needs to be done. But, how do you do it? Who does it? If the biologists are doing it, then they aren’t doing their own jobs.
I’ve said in the past that the UDWR is screwing up by hiring biologists with degrees in fisheries management. Fisheries management is no longer a position that manages fish. It’s a people management position. They (UDWR) need to update their positional requirements. Biologists should have sociology / psychology degrees in order to manage fishermen better! Isn’t that what it’s progressed to?
Drew – this thread brings up a very good point. I wonder if you have any info on it: Prior to the DWR removing its forums, how many hits a day did the DWR website generate? Now that the forums are gone, how many hits a day to the wildlife.ut.gov website?
It’s extremely unfortunate that the DWR did not have the cajones to stand up for itself with the forums. It’s sad that a simple letter from an animal rights group could shut down the forums that quickly. The saddest part of losing that resource was THE LOSS OF INPUT FROM BIOLOGISTS! They may not have been posting on those forums, but there were other sections of the DWR website that had a plethora of information for anglers. The educational value of the DWR website was barely being recognized. The Hotspots map was simply the tip of the iceberg! It had tremendous potential!
But, without the forums, I would be willing to bet that the DWRs website traffic has been cut by more than 85%. What reason do people have to go there? Notices posted on the DWRs website most likely go unnoticed.
Drew – rather than having management request for biologists like Richard and yourself to frequent BFT, or UOTF, why not request to re-instate the DWR’s own forums? Wouldn’t that make a lot more sense?? Bring people to your own site, where you already have the information fishermen are asking for!
in reply to:
DWR findings are that in spite of what everybody seems to think there is a high mortality rate of perch released from under the ice, even in shallower waters. I dispute this, but that is their official position. And, in spite of what some anglers have experienced (in terms of apparent lack of enforcement of releasing perch down the hole) tickets are being issued and will continue to be issued for any violations witnessed by COs.
I do not know where the DWR got there finding’s for this study? i did my own resurch with around 5 hour’s of video to prove it.. i fished all day in 15 feet of water caught and relest every perch cought not one died or was hurt in any way.. about 60% even swam past the camera and tryed to hit the jig again! 
i say the DWR is right in a way to have a keep rule on the perch from the ice at yuba. this is why: not every one has fish finders to check deepth. and not eveyone knows when they have pulled one up from to deep!! so they CAN"T trust the fishermen to do the right thing!! and i’m sure that the DWR’s stand as well but they dont have the egg’s to say it that blunt!
**I doubt that DWR has conducted any definitive studies about the mortality rate. But, they have an official position and they have set the rules to cover ALL POSSIBLE SITUATIONS. **
It is tough to write regulations that address every little potential variable. Like you say, many anglers do not have sonar, or know how to use it properly. So, if the rule was that all perch caught from deeper than 20 feet must be released, and a guy had his sonar set wrong, he could be keeping or releasing fish wrong…and be subject to a ticket. And, no matter what the precise wording of the regs, there will always be someone who will try to weasel a way around it.
**Nope, I do not believe that there is a significant mortality rate for perch released even in deeper water. I have conducted my own research and have been part of other studies in other states…and on several species that all show that many fish caught from deeper water DO survive. **
Some of these experiments have included the use of the weighted release devices. Others have included “fizzing”. In fact, we had one “official” (DWR rep present) survey on Deer Creek, when it was first opened to ice fishing. It is illegal for anglers to mark released fish, but the DWR guy supervised the fizzing, marking (fin clips) and release of deep water perch. We not only caught the same fish more than once on that first trip, but recaught many other fin clipped fish from that area over the next few weeks. And…a lot of the “fizzing” was simply poking the point of the hook into the protruding air bladder and sending the fish back down. They usually powered on down without problems…and as stated, many lived to munch our hooks again later. Not 100% mortality.
**Other states have conducted studies on rapid depressurization among different fish species. It is universally agreed that there is a serious change in blood gasses and in some cases even permanent organ or tissue damage…variable by species, total change in pressure and length of time before being repressurized. Some wimpy species, like crappie, seldom survive even if sent back down with a weighted release device. Others, like perch, just sulk for a few minutes and then go back to eating. **
I have read a lot of things, written by both biologists and simple anglers on the subject of the mortality rate of fish that are yanked from deeper water. Their “findings” and opinions go all over the map…from 100% mortality to virtually zero mortality under the right conditions. To me, it is kinda like religion or politics…a matter of personal opinion…based upon the sum total of one’s individual study and experiences.
In this case, we must abide by the prevailing opinion of those who make the regulations. If their opinion is that we save more perch by mandatory keeping, than by culling or even releasing all we catch, then that is the law and we must accept it.
**Let’s just be thankful that DWR does not tell us all that we have to vote for Hillary. (Sorry, Hillary fans. Just making a point) **
Great info and conversation as usual. I fished Yuba for the first time last April, and caught only trout. I’ll be getting down there later in the year to target the post-spawn action. I’m a fly-fishing float-tuber who has no problems with other types of angling/fish favorites, just so long as everything’s legal. We really ARE all in this together.
Most fisheries management agencies do not recommend deflating the air bladder.
"Fizzing” or releasing the pressure from the gas bladder is sometimes used to facilitate release of undersized fish. “Fizzing,” when done correctly, is a process where gas is released from the gas bladder of a fish by inserting a needle in the side of the fish and puncturing the gas bladder. Many anglers who practice fizzing are actually puncturing the stomach. In actuality, it is the pressure in the gas bladder that must be released.
A fish that is unable to remain upright in the water because it is severely stressed and/or has an over-inflated gas bladder, stands a poor chance of surviving if released. While helping a fish regain its ability to return to the bottom of the lake, many fish that are “fizzed” end up dying within a few days of release, from the stress of being caught and handled. There is also the likelihood that when you insert the needle into the side of a fish you will damage internal organs such as the kidney or intestines.
When a perch is quickly brought up from depth, the stomach is forced out through the mouth as the gas bladder expands from a decrease in pressure as the fish is brought to the surface.
There are two major different types of gas bladders in fishes: physostomous, in “primitive” fishes and physoclistous, in “derived” fishes. Your understanding of lake trout physiology as related to the air bladder is correct. Lake trout are among the generalized fishes known as Physostomi, which have a direct connection (pneumatic duct) between the air bladder and digestive tract. This duct facilitates the direct passage of air in either direction. Typically, this group of fishes fill the air bladder by gulping air form the surface and release air from the bladder by “burping.”
Physoclistous gas bladders, however, do not open to the mouth, so the fish has to let gas in and out of the bladder using a very complex little patch of blood vessels that absorb or let go of gases from the blood. Fishes with these bladders include bass, perch, and sunfish.
Hey Pat, thanks for your wealth of info. I have fished yuba many times and have had some excellent trips. It seems like the talk is on manageing the walleye-pike-bait. What are your thoughts on the carp. I have had fifty walleye days there but have caught the same amount of carp. They hit jigs,bouncers and #7chads. I think they are the most abundant and the #1 predetor in yuba and maybe in any fishery. What are your thoughts on that. Fish on
i’m not TD but here are my thoughts on the carp in the intire system.. the carp should be targeted just like in utah lake and killed! carp are one of the biggest killers of a eco-system than any other factor.. as the carp numbers grow the numbers of the other fish will decline. there is only so much room for bio-mass when it’s 90% + carp there will not be much room for the other speces..
Amen fuzzyfisher, I am not TD either but those where my thoughts! If we could find a way to have good fish reproduce like they do and control them my thoughts are it would be a better fishery. It will be interesting to here what TD has to say! Fish on.