I agree bassrods. I just don’t think you can govern bass with a blanket law for the state due to th facts you mentioned. They are just effected by to many facters in individual waters. Another example would be north huntington res. Bass were stocked in the early 70"s . The next few years there were small under 12" fish, and large 5-6lb fish and very little in between and release all regs. Now there seems to be a stunted 12-14" population.
A freind of mine also owned granita park with 23 lakes and ponds with excellant food supply. Release only fishing produced plentiful numbers, but cookie cutter 13-15" bass with very few larger. And as you stated lake powell and larger waters are very different. So we need different regs based on the waters situation.
Hey Drew, here are a few ramblings from my perspective. I have fished for Utah basskind since the 1960’s…starting with Utah Lake. Caught them by accident while fishing for white bass or walleye.
In the 70’s I had the tackle, lures and technique…mostly learned while living in California…to catch grundles of largies from Deer Creek, Utah Lake, Pineview, Pelican and Gunnison (really miss that lake). Also fished the smallies in Flaming Gorge…and largies in Powell, before the smallies were dumped in there from the Gorge.
Over the years I have travelled and fished all over the country and have caught virtually every species of bass in the country…including a Florida largemouth over 15 pounds. Not braggin’. Just trying to establish some credibility.
You and I had some discussions on Utah bass fishing management even before you were put in your current position. And I think we both agree that an overabundance of small bass is much worse on a bass fishery than the occasional harvest of a larger fish. The small ones are the most aggressive feeders and a bunch of them eat a lot of groceries.
But, in Utah waters the bass usually coexist with trout or other species that are all competing for the same (limited) supply of food. And, in Utah, the food base is usually pretty sparse…usually consisting of only one or two major food items. This is typically perch fry or crawdads…or both. Sometimes there are chubs in the mix but if there are smallies in the lake that keeps them whittled down.
In my sampling of bass waters around the country I have witnessed a lot of different regulations…or lack thereof. Strangely, as others have mentioned, some of the most productive bass lakes in the country are those with minimal regulations. The bass seem to hold their own with voluntary selective harvest practices.
**HOWSOMEVER, virtually ALL of the better bass lakes around the country…from the deep south to the frozen wastelands of Minnesota…have plenty of food to sustain a large population of bass year 'round. That includes multiple species of minnows or other small forage fish…as well as crawdads, leeches, snakes, amphibians, etc. **
Bass do not proliferate or grow big on a sketchy diet of one or two items that are subject to seasonal fluctuations in abundance…or big dieoffs or poor recruitment. That pretty much describes Utah. Besides Lake Powell, there are no good bass lakes in Utah that have THREADFIN SHAD. The gizzard shad in Willard don’t count. And, as most knowledgeable anglers realize, threadfin shad can not survive in Utah’s cold winter waters.
In northern bass lakes there may not be shad, but there are dozens of minnow species that swarm in abundance in the large natural STABLE lakes. There is something for the fish to eat at any time of the year. Not in Utah, with our upsy downsy water levels and poor levels of nutrition in the waters…and minimal or non-existent structure and/or weedbeds.
**In short…we can’t really compare Utah to the prime bass lakes in other parts of the country. The fish are the same but the habitat ain’t. So, if we want bass in Utah we need to address the differences, sometimes on a lake by lake basis, to account for the variations. **
Joe average angler doesn’t want regulations that will forbid him to take home the fish he catches or limit the size and number on specific waters. On the other hand are the bass specialists who learn to deal with Utah’s “uniqueness” and to appreciate every opportunity they can get to catch their beloved basses. They spend a lot of money to enjoy their sport and it becomes a passion. It is understandable that they hate to see ANY of their precious darlings leave a lake in some violater’s cooler.
I don’t envy you for the task ahead. How do you keep everybody happy? Ain’t gonna happen. But, we will all be better off if we let you and the biologists work things out and set the regulations for the good of all. You are going to ruffle feathers no matter what you come up with.
Good luck and thanks for keeping us in the loop. I think I speak for the majority of us Utah anglers when I say that we were happy to see you put into your position and we are pleased with the progress you have been able to make…in spite of politics and underfunding.
Keep up the good work.
PBH is right on target.
I would strongly urge all anglers reading these posts to take a little time, do the research for yourself and find out the truth about how to maintain a healthy bass population.
It does not matter if you have bass fished for 100 years. Fishing can (possibly) make someone a great angler but it does not make them an expert on fishery maintainence.
Just stop and think about that for a second- that’s all it should take.
How can going from lake to lake and catching fish make you an expert on fishery managment?
It does not.
All anglers should take some time and learn the truth.
Very true TD. Many southern lakes tend to be on the eutrophic side meaning lots of algae for the plankton to eat and lots of plankton for the fish to eat leading to an abundance of food for all the little fishies to eat and a very healthy food web. In utah however, with the exception of a few bodies of water like utah lake and pelican reservoir, most lakes tend to be on the oligotrophic/mesotrophic side of the spectrum meaning clear water and not a lot of algae or plankton for the minnow population and on up the food chain. This leads to fierce competition between fish species and a lower carrying capacity for the population and that doesn’t change whether you are talking shiners, perch, bass, or water flees for that matter. A good clue to the status of a lake is if it is clean and clear and trout thrive there it is probably not very productive biologically and probably a little harder for bass to thrive and reach maximum growth rates. As to the size of fish a bigger fish requires more energy to survive so if the resources aren’t there the bass/trout/whatever will reduce in size as a coping strategy. The only way you are going to get a larger population of fish is to either introduce more food or lessen the competition for the available resources period and once again it really doesn’t matter what species of fish you are talking about. Taking home limits of fish in a lake that has good reproduction rates will only open up more resources for the remaining fish and thus make a healthier population. On a side note saying the age of a bass based on its size is almost completely lake dependent. Bass grow at different rates based on available resources so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that when first introduced into a new body of water the bass get big fast and then over subsequent years if the populations are not thinned out they will have slower growth rates. anyway this is turning into a novel so I am going to stop now, Just my 2 cents,
Jed Burton
thanks for the reply, however im still looking for the science to back up your statements is all.
This has been a very educational post. I have enjoyed all the imput. Thanks to all, and hopefully we can move forward with more posts and imput with bioligists like this in the future.
If you could make Bass or Brown trout taste better I might keep a few.
Really, I just don’t like the taste, I thought that was why BASS picked the bass as it’s tourney fish so many years ago. Fun to catch and tasted bad, perfect combo for a tourney catch and release fish.
Ever notice how there is never any problem getting people to keep Walleye, Crappie, Catfish and Perch? If they can catch them and they are big enough, keepers!
AGAIN Troll…you said almost exactly what I was thinking…we gotta meet!![crazy] Notice I got a quote of yours as my signature or whatever…we seem to think alike.
Anyway…in the past I have caught alot of smalls at Nelle, DC, Flaming George, and of course Starvy, but because of the size limit and such I’d just fish for 'em and let 'em go… big/little didn’t matter. Didn’t really care for the taste (barely better than trout…moss taste/trout taste…both EIC)!!!
Like one guy said before, I am from back East let’s say, and I think they made everyone let the little ones go and lowered the limit or something… I just know it seemed backwards like the other guy said. We used to catch some really big LM bass and some up to 6# smalls…and I know we were able to keep one wall hanger if ya wanted, but MOST didn’t because they tasted like a$$ at that size, but that was 100 yrs ago or so…maybe a few less! Do they taste any better yet??
Like others have said and I’ll repeat (at the risk of sounding repetitious), Drew…you and “your bouys” have got a handle on it and are just looking for some “tweaking points” to fine tune what you already have an idea needs fixing.
Good Luck and Good Job so far![fishin]
…except for Strawberry…let everyone catch and keep 2 cutts…any size … then get the he!! off the lake!! That way there won’t be so many “floaters” in the 15" - 21" range. That just about makes me wanna HURL everytime I go there and see the “wake of dead fish” behind someone tuned in and turned on, to what the fish want. " IF " I fish Strawberry again for cutts I will, as always, use hooks so big that big fish have to “open WIDE” to get a bite![fishin] (wonder if that’s why I don’t seem to catch many?)
Bass are such an “I don’t care that much” fish, but are still fun to catch on a small jig fished thru a rock pile just off shore. Spent one whole day walking the banks at the George, and caught so many I wore out 6-7 jig bodies! Most were in the less than 12 inch range, and I didn’t know what the regs said, so I let 'em all go…even tho there were others in camp that gave me he!! for not bringing some “less than 12” back!! (I personally thought I was suppose to let the little ones go, and knew the big ones taste like a$$ anyway, so…)
One point to look at, which I’m sure has been addressed, is that there are some, but not many bass tournys that bring in money for the state. Now, who brings in more…the “neighborhood Joe” that fishes daily/weekly/monthly or the tourny people that fish it for 2 days and then hit the next lake? That is what you should base at least part of the decision on…in my opinion. Plus, that is ALWAYS the driving force of ANY decision anyway…money.
That’s the “bug” I put in someones ear at Willard one icy cold wintery day ice fishing. We now have a second pole stamp, that I told him was needed. He was on the “Proclamation Committee” or something, he said. I told him how Colorado had a second pole stamp like the recip stamp for the George. I told him about the money they made on stamp sales, fines, etc…and the next thing ya know…we got second pole licences available. Talk about planting a seed.
PBH is trying to say that what trout does is what bass will do, you need to read what he wants you too but look at what fish it is you are reading about and if it is lakes or rivers or creeks they write about…
Science???
I have not seen anything to say I’m wrong, but I have seen what they want to do now was done in the past and it did not work then so why would it work now???
I can understand your passion for bass fishing, I love bass fishing. I’m having a hard time trying to figure out what you are trying to get across.
In your own words, regardless of what has been posted previously, how would you like the bass population to be regulated in Utah? Size limits, number limits, different waters, etc. It would help clarify your stance on the subject.
If and I say if they must keep any bass other then the under 12" they have now, That it should be for a trophy fish over 20" and only one or non over 12" at all…
If you like catching big fish why not fish for lake trout or catfish? I mean carp are more fun to me than bass. I could fish in Utah my entire life and never catch a bass over 6lbs.
I agree with tubedude too -
I do fish for them, and I have caught bass in Utah over 6lb as well…
But pound for pound the bass has them beat hands down..[;)][sly]
Again, I would like to say how pleased I am that the DWR reps/coordinators are keeping us informed on their intended plans regarding these issues. I have previously submitted an email reply to Mr. Cushing, but a few additional comments seem appropriate here.
-
Like many respondents, I strongly favor individual bass regs. for specific bodies of water over blanket “simpler” regs for the entire state. Having fished in other states, I feel Utah’s regs are already some of the most straightforward around and there is no benefit in more simplification. That said, it is apparent from previous conversations with DWR personnel on this matter that the call for simpler regs is coming from the highest levels of the DWR, and is very likely to happen. If you disagree, comment may best be directed elsewhere at the DWR.
-
By and large, I strongly agree with what Mr. Cushing has written. Places like Deer Creek are perfect examples of this. DC has been on trophy regs for about 13-14 years, yet cannot grow very many trophy bass (esp smallies), and is chock full of small scrawny bass that simply don’t get big. Certain anglers can whine that they “grow very slowly” but a bass does not live forever, and 10 years+ is more than enough time to grow to a respectable size. Excuses that the bigguns were “caught out”, “poached” or “disappeared” simply do not hold any water when compared to the facts that the lake indeed, has stunted fish and harvest of a lot of those small fish would be a huge benefit. We can also hope that the water situation will help, but the lack of large numbers of decent bass there extends well before the recent construction drawdowns.
-
I do favor a continued “slot” limit for Jordanelle. Perhaps 14-17 inches to be protected. Whereas the lake is currently under a mercury advisory for smallmouth bass, and considering the heavy pressure the lake gets from people hoping for a big bass, I do feel that most of the harvest will be of larger “bragging rights” fish, to the detriment of the overall fishery. If the “pretrophy” fish could be protected, then there should be a steady pipeline of wallhangers for the angler that wants to take one home for “bragging rights”. Comments by anglers on this thread would certainly support my position. I would also like to see the DWR team with the Health department to test smaller bass vs larger bass for mercury levels. It is often the case with mercury contamination that the smaller/younger fish often have lower levels than the more mature fish. If so, the smaller 9-12 inchers may be safer to consume.
-
Considering that seemingly half the state loves to catch 6 inch perch through the ice and can fillet them, I have great difficulty accepting that cleaning/filleting 10-12 inch bass is “too difficult”. A limit of 11 inchers fillets quickly, with plenty of meat, and smallies out of our clean mountain lakes like DC, Jordanelle, and Rockport are delicious.
-
It should be gently pointed out that the DWR has repeatedly advised us to keep the **smaller **bass, especially in lakes that have a huge abundance of this size. While going out and taking home a biggun may not harm anything, it may not help the lake biologically as much as taking home 5-6 11 inchers. Remember the cookie jar analogy, if the jar is full of crumbs, then the crumbs need to be dumped out some to fit some bigger cookies.
-
And lastly, Cliff really struggles with analogies and allegorical thinking. One may want to avoid them when replying to his comments.[;)]
I agree with all of your points.
One thing I haven’t said yet and I should have is that regulations are never set in stone. If harvest increases then more restrictive regulations would make sense and could be implemented. However, in order for any regulation to work in you need fish removed at the size and numbers that are allowed. If there is no harvest then regulations become meaningless.
Great post!!
Drew
.Bass grow slow in our waters. A 20" bass may be 8 to 12 years old.
WHY??? Why do they grow so slow? That is unacceptable to me as an angler. Something should be done to increase the growth rates. What on earth can we possibly do to increase that slow growth rate?? Oh…we could harvest some fish!
They grow slow because their population is under harvested. Their growth rates have considerably slowed down compared to a population where harvest occurs at higher levels. (Cliff – read the document with an open mind and maybe you’ll learn something!!
http://wildlife.utah.gov/blueribbon/4-step_plan.pdf
Just look at page 10 – it should be very self-explanatory even for you!). If you harvest some fish – yes, even big fish – then you move that growth curve down to where growth rates increase and fish grow bigger faster!! It wouldn’t take 8 - 12 years to grow that 20" bass. If you want proof of this, go look at the smallies in Minersville Reservoir. The lake was drained and void of smallmouth two years ago. Today there are already 20" smallies in there!!! 2 years, not 8.
You don’t want to over harvest, but at the same time you do need some harvest. Trout anglers have really struggled to figure this out (Provo River anyone?), and now bass anglers are going through this school of hard knocks as well. Harvest some fish is not a bad thing. Even big fish.
In a lake like Jordanelle, there may only be 200 to 400 (at best) 20" or bigger bass in it. With as many fisherman that fish it on an average year about 100 20" bass are caught. At that rate it would not take long untill they would be gone or in such low numbers none would be caught..
(above quote deciphered using the super-secret mojo decoder.)
Mojo – you’re assuming that no fish replace the removed fish. As soon as those 100 20" bass are removed, some 16-18" bass quickly replace them and grow to 20" to fill that void. Just because you remove a fish doesn’t mean it won’t be replaced.
Your comments are some of the funniest of any comments on this site. Of course, not everyone has a super-secret mojo decoder – but i’ll keep on using mine to try to help those who don’t understand your comments.
it makes no difference what kind of fish. Trout, pike, carp, bass, snake head…you still want the populations in the area of maximum growth rates. If you have populations too large, that growth rate slows and it takes a long time to grow a large fish. If your population is too small, due to over harvest, then fish will never grow large. Get the population in the middle, where growth rates are fast!!
I can’t get your link to work.
try now.
if dwr want a better bass fishery they should try to stock some shad in the lakes the bass would have good food to grow . where i live in southern utah got 3 good bass water by me fish quail and sand hollow a lot food for bass in sand hollow is blue gill and crawdad if the dwr. put shad in the lake it well be lot better bass fishery with bigger bass. one more thing it all seem that a lot of res get drawing down when the bass try to spawn.
if dwr want a better bass fishery they should try to stock some shad in the lakes the bass would have good food to grow . where i live in southern utah got 3 good bass water by me fish quail and sand hollow a lot food for bass in sand hollow is blue gill and crawdad if the dwr. put shad in the lake it well be lot better bass fishery with bigger bass. one more thing it all seem that a lot of res get drawing down when the bass try to spawn.
hmmmm…mojo decoder is struggling with this. But, lucky for everyone, I had a box of Cracker Jax nearby. Secret decoder ring inside, labeled with “utahduckhunter”.
Above quote decoded using super-secret decoder ring says:
too bad the DWR doesn’t have any control over the water in our reservoirs
Many issues could be fixed if Utah’s fisheries weren’t all irrigation impoundments. But, since they are, we certainly do have problems with water levels, especially in drought years.
Other issues involve native species (Virgin River native species in this particular case). But, Sand Hollow and Quail Creek both seem to be doing really well, without the need to try to introduce a forage fish.