Well all things being equal it looks good on paper but yet to be proven. I agree that it would be impossible to completely control the carp situation and I’m in no way saying that the recovery of vegetaion wouldnt profit the waters, it certainly would. But inorder to control the stain of the water I feel the entire lake bottom sediment must be held in place, not merely the shorline. I’m no expect nor do I pretend to be but what I do know is, when dust is seen crossing the point of the mountain between Utah and Salt Lake counties because of wind a person better get off Utah lake. The wind will generate waves large enough to stir the bottm at it deepest point. This leads me to wonder just how deep, grasses could thrive in the Utah Lake conditions.
You are absolutely correct on the wave action. I think that is another reason why the dike proposal seems like a good idea to some of those that get their pay from this project. A dike would reduce the lake wide wave action that beats the lake to a froth inside the impoundment and (hopefully) permit some finer control of the biology in the impounded zone too. Personally, I don’t know if it can be pulled off, but I am excited to see them try and I do feel the overall fishing will improve whether we get june suckers and cutts back or not.
Boy, what a great discussion this thread is! Experts or not, you guys are awesome! I, for one, feel like we have enough trout water in the state and would like to see Utah Lake–if it were diked, as is being proposed–to become a much better bass fishery.
I don’t know if the carp destroyed it or not (probably), but maybe a few of you old timers can remember how great a little section of Utah Lake was about ten years ago. It is called Mud Lake, and it’s down in Lake Shore. I used to duck hunt in Mud Lake ten years ago, and it was absolutely fantastic!
As I’d patrol the ten-foot-high stands of cattails and bullrushes in chest waders, the water was very clear, right down to the bottom. Ducks would fly in by the hundreds in this little lake, but now the standing vegetation is all gone. It doesn’t resemble anything of what it once was. I’ve been wondering what happened, but after reading some of your comments concerning the destructive ways of the carp, it’s possible they ate it all.
All of this may sound a bit naive, and I’m definitely no expert, but it stands to reason that something ate the vegetation, since nothing mechanical or poisionous destroyed it that I’m aware of.
Im with mikecromain on this. one…I too not only am capable of thinking left of center…I can think all the way around the back side of center if I have to to come up with an idea. I think if the carp are really that much of an issue and they cant get rid of them without damaging other fish in the process, they should open a “netting carp” season or kill a carp week where the “bounty” is collected and donated to some farmer organization someplace to use as fertillizer..I have seen more than one of the farmers around deer creek cut open a carp and toss it in a hole under the corn stalks from my tube…so why not on utah lake? I for one enjoy the occasion when a carp decides to eat the offering I placed out for a finn to fist fight…they are strong fish and fun to catch..heck we could freeze em send em to europe and england I hear carp is the #1 gamefish…highly prized…yuk. I like to catch em but I have never been inclined to keep or eat one..I have never even wondered what they taste like. I shudder at the thought of a slimy ball of white meat that smells like a carp…uuggh.
But maybe if we can get a bunch of helicopters to line up and start at one end of the lake, chase all the carp into the inlet or outlet into a net preset waiting for them…while they drag oh i dunno…maybe big wire mesh nets through the water to spook em…then they hold em all at the net site we could use another net or the other half of the net we placed and wrap em up into a carp burrito and sling em all up on shore…then the volunteers could get out the hammers and put on rubber jump suits and start slapping carp on the heads with ball peens, then some more recruits could split the guts on em and toss em back in the water to make fertilizer for the plants and food for a time for the other fish…what ya think of that..LOL.
We all need to realize one thing..carp are the aquatic version of a cockroach..it doesnt matter how many you remove/kill/poision there is always a few more to start over…after the apocolypse if we survive the first animal we see will be a roach and the first fish will be a carp…maybe then we will eat em. I can wait.
Yes this has turned into a rather good conversation.
Yes diking the lake could have certain advantages although I question whether a single dike would have much effect. I believe the lake is about 24 miles in length. If equally split by a single dike it would leave 12 miles of open water on either side of the single dike. Seemingly that would leave more than enough water suffice to generate huge wave action in both sections once diked. Damned if we do, damned if we dont.
Yep, I also recall the days of plenty in and around the Mud Lake area. The drought in itself has taken back what once was give by good water years. But I dont believe for a complete loss.
A few weeks ago I drove around the Provo airport dike one afternoon I noticed that the entire area south and southeast of the dike had been, or was being, burned and plowed under where water no longer existed. Farther more, from where I live in PG I watch a lot of burning taking place along the north shore of Utah Lake between the PG exit and the A/F harbor road. I would suppose it was done in other places as well. Such is pride and progress, and perhaps rightfully so due to the farming usage of very fertile soil left behind once the waters had receded. Man will take advantage of what is seemingly a bad situation. I just hope that the cattails return if or when the water does.
PS. I agree, we have plenty of trout waters and would question any effort to introduce trout in such a shallow, warm body of water as Utah Lake. Something tells me No. Although I will also add that, without the stained water Utah Lakes temp might not get as warm so quickly.
lol, Oh Baby! Oh baby! I can just see it, guts and blood flying every where, not to mention activists. Carp? What Carp?
I too have enjoyed this discussion. And Badfish, you crack me up! That’s so hilarious!
Anyway, I too have hunted over by mud lake, and a few years ago I fished it too and hooked into a huge nesting bass before it snapped my line when it got tangled with my 2nd pole. This was back in about 97 or 98.
The problem with mud lake (Provo Bay) right now is the drought. Most of mud lake is completely dry, and some farmers have actually been growing corn in the area I used to fish in 3-4 feet deep water! There were corn fields there last year and there are this year too. The biggest problem with mud lake is a lack of water. I think those aquatic grasses were destroyed decades ago by the carp, not 10 years ago. If we get a few years of good snowpack and water, it will fill back up and be as good as 10 years ago.
Actually, the bounty system was one proposal suggested in the study I read at the open house. Sadly, it was near the bottom of the list in predicted efficacy in the study. Plus the shrieking of PETA would ruin the quiet mornings I enjoy down here in Happy Valley.
A proposal map I saw at the open house showed a dike encompassing only about the Southeastern 1/4th of the lake as the sucker preserve/study area. The rest of the lake would be the same as now. I didn’t ask Mr. Keleher exactly where the dike might go and how much of the lake would be impounded, so I may be wrong in what the most current proposal would be.
Any impoundment would have to be large engough to keep the oxygen content up and the water temps not too hot. I would imagine that mud lake and south to where the spanish fork river enters would be a good area for it.
Right, and remember that the Strawberry diversion project will be completed this summer, bringing in an increased flow of cool Strawberry water through Diamond fork/SF river into Utah lake. (assuming it all isn’t gobbled by agriculture and development) It may also be easier to remove carp from a smaller Diamond fork than a large Provo river too.
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Plus the shrieking of PETA would ruin the quiet mornings I enjoy down here in Happy Valley.
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If the proposal is to dike off the southern quarter of the lake, kill all the carp in that quarter, and maintain a clearer, vegetated fishery that would sustain a healthy bass population–well, that gets me excited.
And as far as the environmental aspect goes, killing the carp to bring about more vegetation for other fish species, not to mention the benefit to waterfowl, it appears to be a win-win to me.
I didn’t believe that carp was used for fish sticks. It apears that Kraft is feeding it to poor people. Carp Burgers anyone?
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/recipes/articlearc.php?id=374
Oh, those were the days. Shot my first duck out there 20 years ago. Shot my first Carp with a bow out there just a couple of years before that. Got bit on the finger by a field mouse on the same day. I still have the scar. I sat down and put my hand behind me to lean on, and whammo. I had put my hand right on the mouse. The mouse was launched into the stratosphere on a bent arrow from a 75lb. bow.
It didn’t help that a lot of the farmers out there gave up on farming and sold the land off to developers. I used to know a couple hundred people that lived in Lake Shore, now most of them have moved and the few thousand that live there now just don’t seem to be as interested in farming the land as just owning it, or worse, selling it.
If you are wondering about what happened to that land in particular, just think about it. When did it start to go downhill? Just about the time the dikes were built along I-15 from the flooding about 15 years ago? It was at that time that many efforts were made to keep the flooding from happening again that have forever changed the Southern layout of Utah Lake. I don’t recall everything done, but a lot of water was drawn out early in the year to avoid the flooding for a number of years. I don’t know what percentage of waht we have now was caused by the hurried judgement during those few years, but I do know that the lake was deeper, and cleaner, even just 5 years before those dikes showed up. Hmmm
NOW BADFISH,
Dang, man! You are almost as sick as I am. LMAO!!!
Sounds like a great place for all of us “freaks” to try out our fully automatic arms. Much more fun than a hammer[angelic]
I remember reading in the SL Tribune a few years ago about a plan to dredge the lake. It was being propoosed by a state rep. from provo. Besides funding the feds were saying no because of the June Sucker. Under his proposal they would dredge up the lake and create hundreds of various size islands. I seem to recall the islands would have been up to ten acres in size. This would have done two things a parts of the lake would be deeper and the islands would have served as wave breaks. As these islands would be comprised of the muck of the bottom of the lake they would erode back into the lake. So the plan was to keep a small dredge working recreating the islands indefinatly.
Maybe this would help the lake. I would assume they could get cattails and grasses growing on these islands and slow down the erosion rate.
John
Yes is deedy, there were also manya good kitties to be had in Mud Bay. Remember the jug lines that used to be place out there every spring. And lets not even mention Charlie Swedes section.
All this discussion about Mud Lake causes me to wonder if the Goshen Ocean area has seen the same fate. That was another great spot to thumpin’ a few Ducks and Geese as well as a huge honey hole for big kitties while the quackers werent up.
They do use it in fish sticks. I believe that they just donated some of their stocks to be used for charity.
Either way, I don’t think fish sticks and kraft mac & cheese are appearing on my menu any time soon…yuck.
Coldfoot, I also used to fish goshen as my “honey hole” for cats. Where I used to go is all dry now…sigh The drought really has rendered the lake a shell of what it was 15-20 years ago.
Well, after reading all of your posts, I’m missing the old Mud Lake more than ever. It was, without question, the best duck hunting I’ve ever experienced. Also, Id forgotten about Goshen. It too was a great waterfowling spot, but it has definitely seen better days due to the drought.
On a positive note, all of the proposals for improving Utah Lake have gotten me excited–not that any of them will ever be implemented. From the idea of diking the southern quarter and pumping in a lot of fresh water from Spanish Fork Canyon to dredging deep channels and creating wave-breaking islands out of the material–it all sounds like it might work. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that something may be done soon.
Yesterday, (sat) it was so windy that Utah Lake turned chocolately brown and blown out, but I noticed that the geneva steel retention pond that is diked off from Utah Lake, was windy, yes but it is not brown like the rest of the big lake. I wondered why is that! The other thing is, that retention pond has thousands of carp living there now, I know because last fall, that pond was drawn down for some reason, and I saw carp all stacked up at the inlet where the water comes into the pond.
My question is, thousands of carp live there, and why the vegetation (bulrushes and reeds) has NOT been decimated by the carp who lives there? Those vegetation are alive and well. The other question is, why is the water so blue there with those carp?
I know if the the carp was gone, that pond would have huge potential for holding lots of bass. It’s a matter of time when Geneva turn that pond over to the public use…
Something to think about huh?