It’s a rainbow in my book.
Fishrmn
[reply]
I agree that the picture is not the best photo to judge from, but It does have characteristics of both fish. Just by the pic alone, it would go back into the lake to be caught another day. BTW, there is no such thing as a hybrid that is more “bow” or more “cutt”, or more horse or more ass. It’s 50/50, no more, no less. [/reply]
nope, that’s definitely not a cutt or hybrid. It’s a pure strain rainbow at a glance. simply no question about it.
It would be nice if we all didn’t care and that all fish under 25" would be released so this fishery could balance itself out. One major misconception is that the Rainbows don’t help control the Chubs. If the Rainbows are allowed to grow over 20" they do a good job at keeping all the small chubs in the shallows “In Check” during the summer months when all the cutts have gone deep. Despite the great fishing we have right now the Berry is still at a fragile state where the Chubs could very easily have a population explosion and make a real mess. At this particular water we should let them all grow big whether they are a Bow, Cutt/Bow, or Cutthroat.
Please do your part to make this great fishery a spectacular fishery by letting the predators go for a few years.
This fish is a Rainbow all the way. If this isn’t obvious to you then you had better study up before fishing at the Berry. No wonder there are so many violations up there. Although I suppose people releasing 'bows they think are Cutts is better than keeping Cutts they think are 'bows.
FM
P.S. this isn’t directed at any one in particular. Just the general fact that there is so much confusion on the issue.
Hybrids as a rule are sterile. Would the offspring of a horse and a mule be a horse, or just 1/4 ass? Nope, because it doesn’t happen. Now they say one in one thousand can reproduce, but this is stretching it. I think the odds are even smaller. For example the Wipers at Willard do not reproduce, if there were any natural reproduction, even in small numbers, they would stunt and cycle like the eyes do out there. That is why the DWR tries to plant only sterile rainbows in the berry, they don’t want the cutthroat offspring to be anything but cutts. Now I’m sure a few slip through the cracks that are fertile, that is why there is an occasional hybrid caught up there, but you have to agree, they are few and far between. Now in all fairness, it is within the realm of possibility, that a 50/50 hybrid manages to grow big enough to spawn, is actually fertile, and successfully spawns with other cutts/bows and has some offspring that are 75/25, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
I don’t remember the details but I believe Mules are sterile because Donkeys and Horses have a different number of chromosomes and although they can produce offspring the offspring have an odd number of chromosomes are therefore sterile. The other thing you have to remember is that not all species are created equal. Scientific classification is highly subjective and while some related species cannot reproduce others like Cutthroat and Rainbow trout are very closely related and can and do cross and produce fertile offspring. The problem with this is that the Rainbow genes are more dominant and over time erase so to speak the Cutthroat traits. Many wild Cutt populations have been crossbred out of existance by mixing with Rainbows.
FM
I hope that I don’t confuse the “hybrid” issue but I am going to add my 2 cents. The statement “hybrids as a rule are sterile” needs a big qualifier. If the genetics of the parents is close enough, the offspring will be viable. For instance, breeds of dogs when they “mix” are very fertile and quite viable health wise. By definition a mixed breed dog is a “hybrid”. The same applies among many animal groups. The donkey-horse pairing is well known but a donkey’s genetics is sufficiently different in certain critical areas that the offspring are sterile. The definition of hybrid to a geneticist is a “heterozygote” which means having 2 different gene varieties in your “pair”. (each person/critter has 2 copies of each gene in your DNA. Exception being the x gene in males) Now to the trout, All of our native west coast species (bull trout excepted) are extremely closely related genetically. All of the different cutt species can interbreed with each other, and the rainbows can successfully interbreed with the cutts. This is why the DWR is going to such great lengths to put in STERILE rainbows in Strawberry. They want to keep the Bear Lake cutt line in there a relatively pure line. It is also why it was so hard to find genetically “pure” cutts of the various subspecies when the wildlife services were/are endeavoring to save the rarer ones. The “frankenfish” splake,tigers,brakes, brownbows are sterile because the parent species are so far apart genetically. It is also why they had problems with some of them. (Except tigers and splake). I hope this helps some.
Not here to get into a pissing match with you doggone, but every single person and almost all critters on our friendly little planet are all heterozygotes. You get 1/2 your genetics from mommy and 1/2 from daddy. And BTW males are different because of the Y chromosome, not the X. You also do not have 2 copies of DNA in your cells. You have a total of 46 (unless there is some genetic abhorration), each cell has the same 46 (except the sex cells which only have 23).
I can agree with your point about the meaning of hybrids…I should have been more clear on my specific definition. Cuttbows are among the hybrids that remain sterile. Wipers are another, Tiger Musky even another. All of which have very closely related parents, but in and of themselves do not have the ability to reproduce. The theory of keeping the strain pure is bunk. When fertile bows and cutts spawn togther, they make babies that cannot reproduce, thus their family tree is very short lived, and you end up with a rapidly diminishing population of reproducing fish.
Perhaps we could get an ichthyologist to chime in on this one???
In reply,
-
“cutbows are among the hybrids which remain sterile”. This is simply incorrect. Rainbow-cutthroat hybrids are not sterile. I can find some sources on this if you wish but it is why there are so few pure strains of some of our indigenous strains. The lines don’t “die out” the offspring just pass the mixed genes down through the generations.
-
In reference to the comment on the X chromosome, if you read the original post, it refers to the point that there are 2 copies of each gene in our genome, EXCEPT men who have only 1 copy of the many genes that reside on the X but do not reside on the y. The Y is a very small chromosome and combines th the very large x to form a man. Women are XX and have 2 copies of all genes. This is why men commonly have what are called sex-linked genetic diseases such as hemophilia and Duchennes muscular dystrophy but these rarely are seen in women. My original comment had nothing to say about sex determination.
-
There is a difference between genes and chromosomes. A gene is the specific sequence of codes that make a specific protien or control a trait. A chromosome is a strand of DNA that contains millions of genes. Humans have 46 chromosomes which are paired and numbered 1-22 plus the sex chromosomes (which control more than sex determination). There is a copy of each gene on each of the paired chromosomes thus giving us 2 copies. The genes found on chromosome pair 2 are not the sames genes found on chromosome 12. The XY chromosome pair is different but is explained above.
-
“almost all critters are heterozygotes” This is correct. One can also say that we are all “hybrids” in some areas. That is why blanket statements about the term hybrid are risky.
Whew, forgive the long windedness, All of this talk about strawberry cutts makes me want to go catch a few.[:)]
Here is a link to a paper discussing Yellowstone and Snake river cutts.
Under the “threats” section, it discusses rainbow-cutt hybridization and fertile offspring.
http://www.fisheries.org/AFSmontana/SSCpages/yellowstone_cutthroat_trout.htm
This is better than watching the presidential debate!
I still don’t agree with #1.
#2 is still flawed. The only 2 people I have met/taken care of in this state that were hemophiliacs are both women. Perhaps the story is different for those who might work down at PCMC. You also don’t have 2 “copies” of each gene. Each side of the Allele contains sequences of protiens, A,G,C, and T. During during cell replication (mitosis) the double helix splits, exposing the “keyed” protein A,G,C or T. It is then matched up with an opposite “keyed” protien so it is an exact copy of the original is formed. If you were to say we have two similar genes on each chromosome you would be correct. Once again 1/2 are daddys and 1/2 ar mommys. They are not true copies, or all of us would look the same.
Once again, a fun topic to debate on!
Let’s just agree to disagree and go catch some stinking fish!
The offspring of cutts and rainbows are fertile and reproduce successfully…it is the single biggest threat to native cutthroat restoration. I have worked with the DWR and the Forest Service on native cutt restoration and have seen fish with varying degrees of hybridization. The offspring of cutts and rainbows, when they crossbreed, are fertile.
I think at this point we may be talking apples and oranges in some areas, but one last thing on #2. First, as you probably know, there are several different types of hemophilia and the sex linked one mentioned by me involves factor 8. It is a severe hemophilia and fairly common. Hemophilias of the other clotting factors vary in severity and are not controllled by the X. The nucleotides (your a,t,c,g) (not protiens) that control the manufacture of a protien is matched by an opposite strand that is a mirror image. The complete instruction to make a protien is called a gene. However, in a regular cell, the chromosome is also paired with a second twin chromosome that might have a different gene sequence. Thus, two copies of the given gene. This is how you get dominant and recessive “genes”. If one copy of your gene is defective, but the second is working and the trait is “recessive”, the working gene will make the product and you will be fine. If the defect messes up function, even with a normal partner, the defect/trait is “dominant”. If one has 2 defective recessive genes, you get sick. We agree that 50 % of the genetic material comes from each parent.
What do you say we hook up on Strawberry when it freezes over and discuss genetic theory while we are catching pure strain fertile cutthroats and 5 lb. sterile rainbows. I would enjoy that.[:)]
I must digress, after some research and prodding from other individuals, Cuttbows are fertile…I stand corrected.
I’d love to hook up at the berry, but after the work I had to do while writing my thesis on genetic clotting disorders, I’d just as soon not mull about it while fishing!
I happened to be down at the DWR today to get a new license because I lost mine on the duck opener, and one of the guys looked bored so I asked him if he had a minute to answer a question. He looked up the picture and I asked him to clarify the situation for all of us. He couldn’t make up his mind, so he called another guy down, who fishes the Berry alot. On first glance he said it might be a rainbow, it has the red on the gill, and the white tips on the fins. After further review, he said it was a cutt because of the spots on the back and the jaw resembled that of a cutt. Then he went back to it being a bow. The conclusion was that it was probably a bow, but it’s hard to tell because the guys hand is covering the jaw line so you can’t tell if it has the red slits or not. Even though it may not have red slits, he told me that some cutts up there do not have red slits. I asked him if he would write someone a ticket for that fish, and he said probably yes because it has the slightest hint of it being a cutt. He said if there is any doubt, let it go cause it ain’t worth a fine.
Holy cow! We’re all in trouble now if the DWR can’t tell the difference between the Cutts and the 'bows!!! I wouldn’t pay the ticket without a DNA test proving the fish wasn’t a 'bow. That particular fish is leagal either way because it looks to be over 22" anyway. To me that fish looks in every way to be a 'bow and in no way a Cutt unless it has a huge slash mark on its chin but i’d be surprised if it did and if it did it would be a hybrid with mostly Rainbow characteristics. If that was the case why would they give a ticket for a hybrid fish? Isn’t that what they are trying to avoid in the first place? There should be a bounty on them if they exist. Makes no sense to me.
FM
it is a bow for sure… look at the fins and the face.
Joe
Hi Guys…
Just thought I’d try and close this mega string out (37+ posts)-
First I’d like to thank Everet14 for a neat photo of a great fish… we’re lucky to have fish like that here in Utah.
Its plain to see by all the different opinions that the one thing we can count on is continued controversy around the regs at the Berry- (even my DWR fish/hatchery biologist- who wishes to remain anonymous- said that he was sure that field officers would ticket a fish with its characteristics - assuming it was under 22"). However its these same regs- together with a world class fishery like Strawberry- that help to produce awesome fish like this one.
Thanks for everyones input - and with any luck we’ll all find ourselves trying to squeeze one like that through our “ice holes” this winter- (that didn’t sound quite right…)
oh well, thanks- PB
The fishing proclamation guides us in what to do in this case. It really doesn’t matter whether it really is a cutt or a bow. The proclamation states for Strawberry Reservoir:
Strawberry Reservoir (Wasatch County)
- Limit 4 trout or kokanee salmon in the aggregate. - No more than 2 may be cutthroat trout under 15 inches, and no more than 1 may be a cutthroat trout 22 inches or larger. - All cutthroat trout between 15 and 22 inches must be immediately released. - Anglers are encouraged to voluntarily release all cutthroat trout. - Any trout with cutthroat markings is considered to be a cutthroat trout.
The key is cutthroat markings. You can get a citation if your fish has cutthroat markings and is in the slot. It doesn’t matter if it really is a rainbow or not. That’s the law. Let’s all make sure to live up to that and we’ll be fine (but not fined).