Pike and walleye: boost and bane

Utah Fishing Reports & Discussion Utah Fishing General
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I’ve caught some fat carp on 3-5 inch perch lures that I throw early spring. but I’ve also had biologists tell me pike won’t eat carp, so it doesn’t surprise me what I hear.

I have spent a lot of time at Yuba the past 6-7 years….I have caught carp using many different plugs both in size an color. Just because I caught a carp on a rainbow trout colored jerk bait, though, doesn’t make me believe they are preying on rainbow trout.

Start opening up some of those carp and look in their stomachs….you show me a carp and its stomach contents full of perch, and I will believe you. IN fact, I will come on here and gladly admit I was wrong. I have seen lots and lots of schools of carp in Yuba–big schools of carp–but, I have never seen them preying on other fish….not in May, June, July, August, September, or October.

I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull’s rectum but I’d rather take the butchers word for it!!! carp eat perch fry and small perch! I bet I could also clean a few carp and not find a worm in there stomach, but I know they eat worms.

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citations of non-related studies in other states that are largely not applicable to a specific lake or species. And I also resent the hell out of the fact that whenever anybody else expresses an opinion contrary to your own they are labeled as “ignorant”.

“The crash will come”. Yeah, and so will the apocalypse…and the millennium…and Christmas. Utah Lake has been producing lots of big walleyes since the 1950s, without help (or interference) from any government agency. Their population rises and falls with water fluctuations and subsequent forage species fluctuations. Right now they are in their multi thousands with many over 10 pounds. And all fish caught have copious visceral fat. They are not stunting.

Where do you predict the next stunting or crash of walleyes will occur?
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Come on, Tubedude, honestly? You are saying that these studies are “unrelated”? Look at the facts: 1) rising and falling water levels due to irrigation draw downs 2) introduced walleye populations that overwhelmed their prey base 3) intermountain west. Unrelated? I don’t think so! These situations are so similar to some of Utah’s walleye waters–Deer Creek, Starvation, Red Fleet, and Yuba–it is uncanny! But, these studies I am referencing are “nebulous”….especially since some of those studies are from YUBA! IN fact, the carp information I am referencing are forage studies done ON YUBA!

Did you miss the part where I said that Utah Lake had one of the more stable populations of walleye in the state? Of course, though, Utah Lake’s biomass is made up primarily of carp….because carp are one “prey” species that walleye can’t totally control. (why don’t the carp prey on walleye fry? white bass fry?) Also, for the sake of argument, Utah LAKE is also not a reservoir and it’s draw downs are not nearly as pronounced as those in reservoirs like Yuba.

As for the next crash, well, Red Fleet and Starvation are heading that direction….all you have to do is look at what is happening. Walleye numbers are up and fishing for them is getting better and better. Heck, even RMA knows where things head in those fisheries…they are even helping the DWR do their part to get the walleye populations in those places controlled (remember the netting program at Starvation that RMA helped in to remove walleyes?). Deer Creek could also be heading that direction….But, whatever….

….again, though, you show me a picture of a carp’s entrails and multiple perch in its stomach, and I will gladly admit I am wrong. The difference between “stomping” on your “layman statements” is that I AM doing it with studies and evidence as proof. One thing I have learned as an English teacher is that it is important to provide evidence for your opinions….where is your evidence? I have given you some of mine…

….I stand by my opinion that the majority of perch predation at Yuba is done by the relatively few walleye in the reservoir and the overpopulating and soon to be stunting pike!

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Not another walleye thread [crazy]

I read the report and had to laugh. Having more walleyes in more places is not going to change anything in this state. Stocking more walleyes will not make them easier to catch. If people can’t catch walleyes in Utah now, they never will, not in 10, 20, 30 years..In another 5 years, anglers will be blaming the DWR when they’re not catching them out of Red Fleet either, and they will say more need to be stocked, ad infinitum..

Some of the comments on the survey are completely ignorant..Walleyes bringing in more anglers and increasing revenue because they are so popular? Baloney. I fish Deer Creek and Starvation in spring every year..I’ve seen 30 inch walleyes cruising the shore. And I hardly EVER see anyone out there trying to catch them. Where are all these flocks of psuedo walleye anglers that are just pumping in millions of dollars into our economy?? Because if they exist I haven’t seen any.

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Well said Tubedude! I also get a different perspective than many fisherman as I spend alot of time under water and have also seen carp feeding on perch and bass minnows as well as feeding on eggs in nests. I believe in carp genocide

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**I told myself that I was done here. But I will respond to this:
****[#000000]“….I stand by my opinion that the majority of perch predation at Yuba is done by the relatively few walleye in the reservoir and the overpopulating and soon to be stunting pike!”

There is little or no perch predation by any species in Yuba these days because there are very few perch. The days of seeing carp eating perch and finding perch inside of carp happened about 2006 - 2007…as the transplanted perch were spawning. Once the spawning population died out…and their slurped up spawn with them…there have not been enough baby perch in the Yuba ecosystem to make any difference.

Question: If I write something on a forum, and there is no Hepworth there to read it, am I still wrong?
**[/#0000FF]

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You may want to hear what TD has to say, other DWR people in the past have said the same thing about the carp in Yuba..
The DWR was one that talked about the red sided shiner being ate out of Yuba by the carp…[crazy]

TD 1+ the worm 0

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Sounds to me like we got a carp hugger on our hands! Carp can do no wrong in his eyes! Lol

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Glad to see the same guys are still arguing about the same old stuff. I read through the Yuba management plan and the responses. The truth is while I totally respect RMA and BASS representatives they do not represent the majority of the Utah anglers. They are ever present and politically active thus their voice carries more weight with the powers that be. With that said the managers should take their online surveys with a grain of salt since certain organizations are more active. I believe it tends to give a certain biased perception to the special wants groups.

With that said let make a couple comments and perhaps someone could answer. It was nicely stated by wormandbobber that nothing really matters at Yuba if the prey species doesn’t have structure to evade the evil Yuba pike. However I don’t see a single item in the management plan that addresses water levels or structure for the prey specie. So in my 3rd grade way of thinking the long term objectives are a moot point aren’t they?

Furthermore if the pike can never control the carp and the carp will reproduce in large numbers regardless, then why are you even attempting to make Yuba a “trophy” pike lake?

Walleye are not easy fish to catch by the average joe bank tangler. Pike are harvested in much larger numbers by shore anglers than walleye. Pike are easy to catch and dumber than a box of rocks. While they may not taste as good pike are an absolute blast to catch.

So again why are folks even trying to turn Yuba into some exotic non-resident walleye travel destination. If you don’t have control of the water levels the plan will fail. I feel like ya’ll should quit listening to the voices from RMA and BASS and embrace it as a pike fishery. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems like a lot of effort and expense is being put into a fishery for the wants of a few conservative organizations.

One final comment on the six tournaments mentioned in the management plan. I find it odd that the DNR priced the same special interest groups right out of the tournament business. Which was brought on by a knucklehead holding non-sanctioned illegal contests. If ya really want to do six events and harvest some fish hold something similar to the burbot bash or would that offend the conservative nature of the special interest groups advocating all bass and pike waters should be managed for trophy potential.

29

Needakickerfish,

I’m a member of the of the of the committee that developed on the Yuba Management Plan.

These are my views to address some of your issues:

Water Levels and Habitat in Yuba.

The Yuba Working Group has members of the water users on the committee. The third meeting into the process the water users gave a presentation on how they manage the water. Every drop of water in Yuba is committed. It could be drained completely dry if the water users wanted. That’s also a very real possibility in the near future. Most of the water left in Yuba is owned by IPP. They try to keep a reserve in the reservoir for dry years. There is a talk of them building a natural gas power generator in the near future. If this happens, IPP will use their allotment every year. In fact, they will be purchasing water from the agricultural users.
In addition; the water users won’t allow putting anything in the reservoir that would take away any storage capacity. They did work with the anglers and the DWR about a dozen years ago. Christmas trees, burms, rock reefs and other artificial habitat were put into Yuba. Most of the key members that organized these efforts are on the Yuba committee. It was determined that the scale on which it would be needed was too large anyway.

Without any control of the water level we decided to look into what we could control. After looking at the water level data, it was assumed that during the years when the water level remained somewhat steady the walleye and perch were able to get off successful spawns. In the mid-late 90’s we had several years in a row this happened. Perch and walleye fishing were fantastic. Most of the pike in Yuba were very large.
In several of the recent years the water level has started dropping in April and continued all the way through fall. This has been a detriment to the walleye and perch populations. Excessive northern pike have also pressured the perch and walleye.

This is were the stocking of perch and walleye comes in.
Supplementing walleye and perch is something that we can control. Especially on years the water levels impact the spawn.

It’s hard to explain all of the reasons the committee used to develop the plan.

We also looked at other prey species and decide to try this approach first.

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Here ya go both from yuba

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That’s one nice golden pike in the second picture:laughing:.

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I think the pike numbers are overestimated by people on here. go down there and catch 20 and show me a pic of that stringer. most aren’t very successful when they try or they catch a few. yes there are a lot of pike in there and I’ve hammered them on good days but it’s not like perch fishing in fishlake that people are trying to compare it to. There were many disappointed ice fisherman I came across and they surrounded me when I’d catch one, the same goes for soft water as well. But I agree, removing a few pike doesn’t matter, the perch and walleye will still struggle, the carp will just eat that much better. if the water doesn’t come up, it doesn’t matter.

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Thanks for the info. Always nice to hear an insiders view.

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Thanks for the info. I realize all discussions don’t necessarily make it into the minutes. And don’t think I’m doggin on the DNR guys. They are clearly in a no-win situation. Although I personally don’t believe the conservation organizations mentioned is a true representation of Utah anglers, my point was the Yuba project cannot meet the objectives. They (we) don’t have access to all the pieces to make it work. Therefore why not embrace it for what it is and turn it into the best pike fishery possible?

It seems we are always lobbying for changes in regs or management to enhance “trophy” potential and it rarely works. The regs on some of these ponds, while well intentioned, don’t make a darn bit of difference. I guess I’m saying is it don’t make a lot of sense to me to try and prevent the inevitable regardless of the perceived wants of the angling public.

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When IPP needed water to build the existing plants it went out and boutht the water rights. Now looking at expansion you indicate they will go out and buy more.
Any agency federal and state evidently is unable to do what a private Company has no difficulty accomplishing.

A lack of desire and motivation is why our representatives our unable to accomplish what a private Company had no trouble with in the past or the future!!

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Every drop of water in Yuba is committed. It could be drained completely dry if the water users wanted.
In addition; the water users won’t allow putting anything in the reservoir that would take away any storage capacity.
Without any control of the water level we decided to look into what we could control.
It’s hard to explain all of the reasons the committee used to develop the plan.Thank you, sir, for those very enlightening comments; much appreciated. While your comments pertain to Yuba, in a general sense they apply to most man-made reservoirs in Utah. And they point out the real dilemma faced by the DWR (and anglers) when it comes to managing the fisheries. We always take a back seat to the primary water users which are never the DWR/anglers.

It’s a real shame that more people don’t take an active part in the process as you have done instead of P & M and attacking the DWR on these and other boards. I think the DWR does an excellent job given the restrictions they face and I support their efforts 100%.

And again runnoft, thanks for the insight.

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Any agency federal and state evidently is unable to do what a private Company has no difficulty accomplishing.Your assessment that IPP is a private company is incorrect. Here is a quote from the IPA Organizational Purpose:

“The Intermountain Power Agency (“IPA”) is a political subdivision of the State of Utah, organized in June, 1977, pursuant to the Utah Interlocal Co-Operation Act. IPA consists of 23 Utah Member Municipalities that own electric utilities, and is governed by a 7-member Board of Directors elected by the Member Municipalities. The purposes of IPA are to finance and operate a facility to generate electricity known as the Intermountain Power Project.”
The lack if desire and motivation is why our representatives our unable to accomplish what a private Company has no trouble with in the past or the future!BS! Generating power for the masses has a lot higher priority then providing fishing opportunities for a minor percentage of the masses. I enjoy fishing as much as the next guy or gal, but I sure as Hell wouldn’t give up 99.99% reliability of my electrical power usage to be able to pursue it (fishing).

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Intermountain Power Project (IPP) was built as a joint undertaking by 36 utilities in Utah and California.
The participants were Municipalities, Cooperatives, Cities, and Private Corporation like Utah Power and Light. This participation was 75% from the state of California.
No single term appropriately describes these participants, private Company can surely be picked apart by a master like yourself.
The purchase by State or Federal Agencies of Low Water Pool reserves is unlikely to ever threaten Power for the masses, especially if private enterprise wishes to simply purchase the water first.

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Intermountain Power Project (IPP) was built as a joint undertaking by 36 utilities in Utah and California. The participants were Municipalities, Cooperatives, Cities, and Private Corporation like Utah Power and Light. This participation was 75% from the state of California. No single term appropriately describes these participants, private Company can surely be picked apart by a master like yourself.Au contraire mon soeur: the single term that more than adequately describes the participants is “The Intermountain Power Agency (“IPA”) is a political subdivision of the State of Utah.”

The purchase by State or Federal Agencies of Low Water Pool reserves is unlikely to ever threaten Power for the masses, especially if private enterprise wishes to simply purchase the water first.That statement made about as much sense as Yogi Berra’s quote that “Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.”

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You can observe a lot by just watching.