Yes I read the documents low oxygen levels due to low water levels was my take away. Even had that discussion with locals and fish and game up in Idaho. That’s why they keep the water level at a certain elevation not to drop below that elevation. What I read what I was told.
I know they are ugly and a eyesore. I also know it is a bad idea, I was just hoping to lighten the mood.
Everybody knows railroad box cars work way better than automobiles anyday!
**Ha. Back in “former times” one of the State Park Rangers had an old stripped down pickup he used to drive out on the ice…when safe. On one trip it turned out to be NOT SAFE. As he and his buddies were fishing a few feet away the truck sank slowly into the depths. However, it was winched out before it could become “structure”.
There are a lot of lakes where old vehicles are resting on the bottom…providing habitat for structure loving fishies. Only problem is that the fish sometimes stay in them long enough to learn how to slam doors and roll up windows. They teach them that in schools.
Sorry K2. Some of us kinda got off track.
**
All good by me TD. Great conversation on thoughts and whys…the more info the more we all learn…
I love fishing for Perch. I’d really like some better options.
I’d like to see an effort to improve Deer Creek. For a very long time it was a great Perch fishery. I’m not sure it’s possible without us fishermen doing some real damage to the small mouth bass population there (they really should up the limit of SMB to 10 and reduce the LMB catch to 1-2, but I digress).
Jordanelle is another possibility, but I’d rather see Jordanelle used as the variable resource to keep Deer Creek at a more stable level to improve the fishery there.
Jordanelle is large enough to handle massive water fluctuations and keep the smaller Deer Creek relatively stable.
Frankly, I don’t think the state should bother managing Yuba at all. Any money spent may go right down the drain, literally, if the watershed owners take the water.
After a great start to the year, we’re now well below normal snowpack again for the Northern mountains.
I hear there’s a massive new effort at Utah lake to get ahead of the problem by renaming it Utah Mud Flat.
I was just going along with you, but I think the rail cars would make great habitat. Funny how what’s bad can be good in other ways. Do you think the water at Willard will make it back into the rocks this year? That’s sure good habitat. Later J
I am hoping to be pulling cranks there the saturday after this.
I am usually a pretty optimistic guy but I also consider myself a realist. I think the water will hit the rocks for a brief time but then go back down as quick as it came up.
Until we get 2 or 3 years of 130% snowpack or better we all better trim up our outboards.
I noticed freeway bay is open out a couple hundred yards from the dike so you may get your wish. I think your estimate on water level will be pretty close unless things really change in the next few months. That is one big pond it will take a lot of water to make much change there. Would be fun to see a little more water there again. I’ll keep hoping. Later J
Water Elevation is managed, Predation was managed/eliminated, introduced adult size Perch that was managed…no harvest limit etc, etc, etc…
OK. Now we’re getting somewhere, other than just complaining. Let’s discuss:
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Water elevation management. How does the State of Utah control water levels of reservoirs? It cannot, because it doesn’t have the authority to do so. That authority resides with the irrigation companys and I don’t see them bowing to the fishing population - ever. Right now, they have no control over this. How can this be resolved? It cannot as long as the irrigation companies own the control rights.
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Predation management: Yuba currently has very liberal limits on pike – to the dismay of many anglers. At other places (Jordanelle comes to mind) the DWR has made numerous attempts to liberalized limits on small mouth bass, but the angling public has fought to not allow these liberal limits. The general angling public is clueless as to what is, and what is not, good fish management. For the most part, 99% of them act on emotions and never on facts. Just one more reason I never have been, am not now, and never will be a fan of the RAC system of management in Utah. What a very cruel joke being played on the citizens of Utah - but that’s a subject to be discussed in another thread.
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Stocking – in order to stock large fish you have to raise them first. That’s always a problem, and a costly one too. It certainly is Ollie! And one the State can ill afford. As was already mentioned in the case of Yuba, stocking bigger perch isn’t a solution, but rather a band-aid that will help nothing in long run.
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Harvest limits. We already have some very liberal harvest limits on perch. Further, the Sate of Utah has liberalized the use of perch as bait for many waters. In fact, perch from Fish Lake can also be thrown away! are there other lakes where harvest limits could be liberalized and where anglers would actually harvest more fish? Sometimes we liberalized harvest limits but anglers refuse to harvest more fish. Yep, once again, the general angling public is clueless as to what is, and what is not, good fish management.
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Habitat. Look at what is being done at Fish Lake with weevils and millfoil. Dude can complain about the reasons why it’s being done all he wants – but something that cannot be denied is that with all the changes at Fish Lake PERCH SIZE WILL INCREASE! Habitat improvement, liberalized limits, encouragement to harvest all you can catch, tournaments promoting perch…it seems to me like Utah is “managing” the perch at Fish Lake, which is good for ALL SPECIES in the lake! But can you say with certainty that the State is managing the perch in Fish Lake 100% for the betterment of the perch and no other reason? I doubt that is the case but would certainly like to see data that says I’m wrong.
WARNING: Elephant in the room. Proceed with caution.
- Population control – we’ve mentioned predator control, but what about the perch themselves? How do you control the perch population? That’s the BIG question. It’s the question that has constantly been asked over, and over, and over in Utah. We’ve seen time, after time, after time, where perch populations explode being their capacity which results in crashes. The best answer is item #1 on this page: water levels. ** If you could control water levels**, you could maybe control perch populations. That is a very big ‘IF’ and a very big ‘MAYBE.’ Keep water high during the spawn, then drop the levels below those spawning areas after the spawn to leave the eggs high and dry. But how do you accomplish this? At a natural lake (Fish Lake) you can’t do this. At reservoirs (Yuba, Deer Creek, Jordanelle), the water is controlled by an irrigation company, not the DWR. So, how do you manipulate the water levels to reduce perch spawning ability to a healthy population level? Figure this one out, and you might have something to run with!
Wasn’t Lake Cascade drained a number of years ago? In an effort to remove all the fish? And the result of that was FAST growth, and a new record fish. Hmmmm…sounds like something we’ve been preaching for years!! Reduce population numbers and get fish back in the zone of fast growth, and you’ll get big fish. Figure out that puzzle. No more complaints, just solutions.
I thought maybe stocking saugeye in some of our lakes that are over crowded by small perch might help the problem, I know it has been talked about before but after doing some reading on the saugeye that even though they are a highbred they can and some times do breed with either the walleye or sauger and could cause a genetic problem. Oh well that shoots that as a possible answer in the butt [:/] Just have to continue to make a trip to Cascade for big perch to see if we can help that fishery out:sunglasses:
Bob – thank you for replying. It’s ironic to me that the people doing the most complaining don’t want to discuss the very topics they complain the most about. Hmmmm…makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
Just a few comments from your responses:
It [State of Utah] cannot [manage water levels], because it doesn’t have the authority to do so.
BINGO!
The general angling public is clueless as to what is, and what is not, good fish management. For the most part, 99% of them act on emotions and never on facts…
…What a very cruel joke [RAC system] being played on the citizens of Utah…
Again, spot on, as evidenced by this very thread. Ironically, it’s those same uneducated general public people that fought for the RAC system and wanted to have their say in management here in Utah. Now we have groups like SFW running the show. Nice. Good job voting public of Utah!
…can you say with certainty that the State is managing the perch in Fish Lake 100% for the betterment of the perch and no other reason?
Why should that matter? Regardless of what the management plan is intended for, average perch size in Fish Lake will increase due to that management plan.
This is something many worry too much about. Anglers want a specific plan for a specific fish – but it isn’t always necessary. With Fish Lake, we know that lowering the population of perch will benefit those same perch, even if the plan is put in place to specifically help lake trout. You’re still getting a better perch fishery from the deal! Many want to say “that’s an unintended consequence” that the DWR biologists didn’t see coming – but it isn’t.
Anybody know how big the perch hanging on the DWR southern region office wall is? I’ll give you all a hint: it’s bigger than the state record.
…can you say with certainty that the State is managing the perch in Fish Lake 100% for the betterment of the perch and no other reason?
Why should that matter? Regardless of what the management plan is intended for, average perch size in Fish Lake will increase due to that management plan.
This is something many worry too much about. Anglers want a specific plan for a specific fish – but it isn’t always necessary. With Fish Lake, we know that lowering the population of perch will benefit those same perch, even if the plan is put in place to specifically help lake trout. You’re still getting a better perch fishery from the deal! Many want to say “that’s an unintended consequence” that the DWR biologists didn’t see coming – but it isn’t.
Anybody know how big the perch hanging on the DWR southern region office wall is? I’ll give you all a hint: it’s bigger than the state record.For clarification, the point I was trying to make is that the DWR (to the best of my knowledge) doesn’t ever manage any waters 100% for perch. There is always a bigger picture to look at and the attempts to control the perch population in Fish Lake is just one part of that bigger picture. You say with Fish Lake, we know that lowering the population of perch will benefit those same perch, even if the plan is put in place to specifically help lake trout, and that we’ll still get a better perch fishery from the deal! You also said that it isn’t “an unintended consequence” that the DWR biologists didn’t see this coming. Sorry, but I haven’t seen or found any authoritative sources that support your assersions. What I have seen/found is that perch management in Utah waters is pretty much a complete shot in the dark. The environmental variability in our waters makes a guaranteed positive outcome a complete gamble in any attempt to manage perch here. But then, my education is in electronic engineering, not fish biology. But I did and do some research into the subject and just haven’t found any sources that would support your claims thus far. And I also never have a problem admitting when I’m wrong when shown that I am.
Sorry, but I haven’t seen or found any authoritative sources that support your assersions. …
… just haven’t found any sources that would support your claims thus far. And I also never have a problem admitting when I’m wrong when shown that I am.
Right now, the perch population in Fish Lake is too high. They are stunted. We know this. We also know from past history with numerous other species that when you have a stunted population (ie: sexually mature fish at smaller than normal sizes) average size of those fish goes down.
So, how do you correct it (regardless of species)?
You do that through any of the 4 basic management tools, all of which currently being employed at Fish Lake:
(1) Rules and regulations; Disposal of fish (yellow perch), no limit on yellow perch
(2) public relations and education; Annual Perch tournament
(3) fish stocking and removal; netting of perch, Annual Perch tournament (both are removal tactics)
(4) habitat improvement and manipulation; introduction of weevils to reduce milfoil
by using those management tools above, the perch population should decline. Obviously, we don’t know for sure, but it is hoped that those tools will help. We do have some evidence that shows that the weevils are reproducing, which should also mean they are feeding on the millfoil and that the habitat that the perch use should be somewhat reduced.
By removing fish through regulations, tournaments, and habitat manipulation, the population size should decrease. What happens when population sizes decrease? Average size increases.
Also – the perch in the southern region office? It was over 2lbs. It is larger than the current state record. It’s probably very close to Idaho’s new state record.
It also came out of Fish Lake!
So why load up trucks and dump the Perch in Yuba as Pike food oh and we like Pike. For us who target Perch and if there is a game plan for them we are hoping then why Yuba??? Including no say so on water elevation if one wants angler input then again why Yuba???
The state is trying but until they open up to anglers preference and not target fixation on trout. Again mind you the state is seeing this and we are greatful but from my angling perspective more can be done and I’m not buying at least now it’s for the Perch population in fish lake. It will be literally years on that body of water to show with consistency BIG PERCH over 12"…and it isn’t one Perch hanging on a wall…
Stock some Tiger Muskies in there that being fish lake and don’t allow harvest of them from spear fisherman. Then you’ll in years get a ROI. That’s if the state sees Fish lake as a future Perch fishery for again BIG PERCH and not for Trout and Hybrids of Trout…
Straight Up Idaho. That is where it was caught.
Wolves are coming your way.
Idaho
Is there any possibility the answer is technology? What if someone came up with some kind of artificial structure that could be laid down on the bottom (in a strategic way, such that there is always some present even if the lake level is super low)… the structure would need to be fairly permanent, cheap to produce, and fish friendly…
Aside: I remember fishing Deer Creek with dad quite often for perch and we caught some really, really nice perch. I don’t think I have ever caught perch that nice since then, in any body of water or state. I know the bass showed up and ruined that party but it just goes to show like you said Utah lakes CAN produce really nice perch, it is just a matter of IF they will given the conditions that are present.
But I think it is kind of unhealthy or unwise to look at Cascade perch and then come home and wonder why perch fishing can’t be like that here… I think Cascade is probably the best perch lake in the entire country… Everyone and anyone who fished there would surely wish they had that kind of perch fishing nearby but you can’t have world class fishing for a certain species just willy nilly. It a rarity and the exception to the rule.
**There are many types of artificial fish “reefs” and other structure. Your search engine will generate pages of info and pictures of various kinds that are now available…and studies that have been made with each of them.
Two problems: First is money. That stuff costs more money than most states have available for such projects…especially if they want to upgrade an entire lake of any size. Second is approval. As has been mentioned, most Utah Lakes are owned by downstream water user interests…not the state or DWR. And (justifiably) the farmers and municipalities that depend on that water are usually reluctant to approve anything that does not directly benefit them…not fish or fishermen. They most definitely get agitated if there is even the slightest potential for something that affects the quality of the water or the chance that something might break loose, drift down current and clog or damage their equipment.
I have fished Deer Creek for decades…since the 1960s. And I remember how the bottom was seemingly paved with perch…all over the lake…at all depths…at any time of the year. And I also remember catching plenty of porky perch…up to 14 inches…on most perch expeditions. It was one of those “perpetual motion machines” of perch fisheries…where the perch spawned prolifically to provide plenty of food for the larger ones…while insuring plenty left over for anglers and future populations.
That all changed with the introduction of smallmouths. Within a few years the smallies grew big and fat on the crawdads and then on the perch. Bigger smallies ate two year old perch. And the young…up to a few inches long…formed big schools and decimated the newly hatched perch fry in years when the water level was high enough to bring off a good perch spawn.
Today it is increasingly difficult to find perch of any size. But those that survive the smallies do still get big. There are a few caught each year over 12 inches. Very few of any size. But if there was more food for the perch and fewer stunted smallies there would be more perch…and a lot of them would get to be a decent size.
Bottom line is that any lake is capable of producing big perch. The question is how many. Since our Utah perch lakes are mostly barren of any forage species…other than baby perch…the perch population is dependent upon the perch population both for procreation and for a food source. Once any other species…or weather anomaly…decimates a spawn or recruitment…the tipping point topples and the population goes down.
I have caught perch from many different waters in Utah…and Idaho. It is almost a guarantee that if there is a large population of large perch it is because there is good forage…either lots of aquatic invertebrates (like shrimp) or plenty of minnows or baby perch. When every fish you bring up is barfing up recently ingested baby perch, other minnows or small crawdads or shrimp you know the lake is a perch factory. On the other hand, when you find very few perch…and none of them have very much food in their innards…you get the idea that pickings are slim and that’s why the perch are scarce…or stunted.
Over the years there have been several lakes around the country that suddenly burst on the scene as THE PLACE TO GO for lots of big perch. But most of these places have a brief period of glory then return to mediocrity or even experience a crash…especially our man-made lakes (reservoirs) here in the west. The ecology goes up, down and sideways according to weather patterns, etc. So it becomes virtually impossible for state fisheries departments to “manage” them.
**
From my understanding one of the reason’s why many water owners are not willing to even talk about restricting use is that, it is either a use it or loose it issue situation. Meaning if they do not use every bit of their rights they will be reduced is this correct?
If the above is correct then maybe this is where we need to start as a community, not just anglers but as a people. To me it seams very wasteful to use water that is not really needed for the crops to grow or to generate or cool a power plant just because you can. I think that it would be good if there was an incentive to not use all of the water, but to rather only use what is absolutely necessary. The one thing that is worth more the gold,or any amount of money here in the west is water. The people that own it are the ones we need to be pitching ideas to,show them they are not loosing, but until we can get both sides to sit down and discuss, not just blame this will probably never happen.
Something PBH has touched on I think is improving habitat for one species may also improve habitat for others. I personally grew up thinking that the only fish in Utah were Trout species, Channel Cats, Bullhead Cats, Carp, Suckers and Crappie (in Willard) I admit as a kid I new what the limits were and that was it. It was not until my good friend Wasatch opened my eyes to all the other kinds of fish we have.
Lets try and make all of our waters better in the long run it is the only way I would love to see my daughters grow up and have kids that like to catch fish like perch.
Fish need water first and foremost lets start with that problem first. After all you can not eat an elephant in one bite.
K2
K2Q: why load up trucks and send perch from Fish Lake to Yuba?
A: Because anglers wanted it. Maybe not you, but other anglers did.
This is a problem in Utah – everyone wants something different, and everyone complains when they don’t get what they want.
K2:The state is trying but until they open up to anglers preferenc…
A: You are wrong. The State isn’t just doing what they want. This is why a working group was created for Fish Lake. This group was made up of ANGLERS. They determined what THEY wanted for Fish Lake and a management plan was developed based on those interestes. Same thing happened with Boulder Mountain. These working groups are specifically created to keep ANGLERS involved in the decision making process. So far, it is a great success.
K2: … I’m not buying … it’s for the Perch population in fish lake.
PBH: Read the management plan. It specifically states as an objective “increase average perch length from current 7 inches to 10 inches or greater”.
PBHQ: Have you read the plan? (see attached)
K2: It will be literally years on that body of water to show with consistency BIG PERCH over 12"
PBH: Wouldn’t that be true with ANY strategy to increase perch size?? Those perch in Cascade didn’t get big overnight either. Any management strategy will take some years to show results.
K2: stock some tiger musky…
PBH: Again, you should read the management plan. The plan, again, states “If after 5 years, perch numbers are not decreasing and Utah chub numbers are not increasing, then evaluate and consider stocking sterile walleye, tiger musky, saugeye, sterile muskie, or sterile pike…”
It just kills me how often we show our ignorance. We will complain, complain, and complain about something that we obviously don’t know anything about! This thread shows that clearly. Anglers are complaining that they aren’t being involved in management, and yet angler working groups are exactly those people that have worked to develop new management plans. We’re complaining that we won’t manage any fisheries for perch, and yet those same management plans are developed to help increase average size of perch!
Now, I understand that maybe Yuba is the desired place, and not Fish Lake. Yuba is also in the Central Region (vs. the Southern) and things have been done differently in the Central Region for a while. I think there is some great opportunity for change and I think we’ll have some good opportunity to start working more with the DWR using angler groups to help create new management plans and numerous places. Hopefully we can see some changes at Yuba?
Fish Lake Management plan is attached. Read it.
It just kills me how often we show our ignorance. We will complain, complain, and complain about something that we obviously don’t know anything about!
Yes, but it so much more fun to complain than to read a long and boring management plan. [;)]