And exactly how does one go about getting said training on such aggressive and viscous creatures.
One of the quickest ways to tell that Coldfooters is a green sunfish is the green worm like patterns on the cheek plates. If you look at any picture of green sunfish on the net or anywhere you will see these markings on the cheek plates. Also they are a lot thinner from top to bottom than blue gills. Compare the fish you think is a green sunfish to pictures on the net and see what you see on that fish that compares to other green sunfish then look at how it more closely resembles a blue gill. I have been fortunate to catch rock bass, green and pumpkin seed sunfish, blue gills and shell cracker sunfish in very many different states and I can tell you with 100% certantity that the fish you think is a green sunfish is actually a blue gill.
I would say that the fish in question is a bluegill. Green Sunfish have cool squigly neon bluish marks around the head. The mouth also looks too small to be a sunfish.
Eat it and find out!
NETO - Get a good closeup of the dorsal fin (spread out), the pectoral fin (spread out and lifted away from the side), the gill flap (lifted away from the side), and the mouth (opened). My OPINION is that the fish in the picture at the top of this thread is a green sunfish.
Ok, I just have to clarify things here. Coldfooter’s initial pic is beyond a doubt a green sunfish…Lepomis cyanellus. NETO’s fish are bluegill. None of these fish are pumpkinseeds. Green sunfish are found in numerous bodies of water in Utah including Utah lake, deer creek, pineview, various urban ponds, willard bay, Mantua, etc. Some waters have hybrids between greens and gills too. Those are very attractive fish in terms of coloration.
I agree with Fin-S-Fish. Coldfooters fish is a greenie, NETO’s fish is a bluey. I think some fellow posters got confused about which fish we were trying to identify. Coldfooter never answered the question of where he caught it though.
Slayer
At first I thought NETOs fish was a Sunfish or one of the hybrids, but, now after looking at it some more and clearing up the photo a bit to see more of the detail, I am thinking it is a Bluegill - it has the saucer body shape that I couldn’t make out before. Putting the two fish side by side on my screen showed that pretty well.
Hey NETO ,
When you take the autopsy photos try to get one of the fins - hybrids keep the yellow tint of the sunfish parent usually along with a elongaged mouth line. My photo doctoring washes them completely out.
Ace,
Coldfooter said that he caught it at UL (Utah Lake) and looking at CF’s picture some more, it is looking more like a sunfish, more elongated profile than a bluegill. The size of the mouth still throws me off though. I’ve noticed also that fish coming out of Utah Lake are paler than similar fish in other waters which I attribute to the lake’s persistent murkiness. Compared to a bluegill coming out of Utah Lake, a Pelican Lake bluegill has more pronounced colors. Just my $.02 .
Green Sunfish. End of story.[:(]
Well, I knew at least one viewer of this post would not be able to sleep tonight without seeing the pictures, (me) so I went ahead and took some pics of my trophy and posted them up. I also took pictures of the “Bluegill” and “Green Sunfish” examples in the 2007 proclamation and posted them for comparison.
My opinion at this point: Based on the shape of the dorsal fin (front of the fin not taller than the back) and the rounded tail lobes, the overall coloring and overall shape of the fish, I cannot call it a Bluegill. However, it certainly does not have the little gold bands on its head (that I can see) nor does the mouth seem big enough to call it a Green Sunfish.
My non-educated opinion: A hybrid.
Whatever the results are of this CSI, further analysis of the specimin will not be possible. (burp.)
Randy
After careful thought I must admit I havent come up with a sure fire method a non pro Sunfish slammer can avoid a fatal bite when coming in close contact with the Big Green Meanie.. This is a inherited talent. Passed down through a thousand generations of Greenie slayers. As is the case with Dragons, Green Meanie’s will stalk their victims from a hiden lair. And once provoked they pouncing like a cat on a mouse to inflict its fatal strike as their neon stripes flash its joy of doing so.. And guess what, your the mouse in this situation!! Caution! Use extreme caution I say!
However, if one must attempt such a venture the best advice I can give is not venture out in search of the dreaded Green Sunfish without a eletric cattle prod in hand.. Once a person desides he or she has located the little waskles secret lair drill several holes in the ice in a circle around said lair. If by chance the creater sticks it head out of one of your ice holes grab cattle prod and light tap yourself on the behind with said cattle prod. This should intice you to move little faster while your trying to avoid the dreaded beast..
Other than that, your on your own..
TD, I thought the male 'Gills had the orange ‘chin’ and the females were the darker color? Correct me if I’m wrong please, guys. thanks!
Sure seems like a lot of work for a 9" bluegill, N.E.T.O.!
Lavaman, the ear flap is a good key for separating male from female gills…but I admit this is only for the expert fish taxonomist. Male gills will generally have a much longer ear flap in proportion to body size. The head is generally larger in proportion to body size in males too. Coloration alone is difficult to utilize to distinguish the sexes since color is contingent upon environment and individual specimens may also have great variation. Murky water or deep water usually results in paler specimens overall. I can sex and identify a hybrid, pure gill or pure green sunfish at a glance but most people cannot. It can be confusing.
NETO…no need for all the angles…That is definitely no hybrid. I do have a pic of a hybrid but not in postable format but on a paper photo. That was from Mantua…it was so colorful I just had to take a pic of the 3 inch fish…lol. I seen much larger hybrid green/gills out of utah lake.
Hey NETO,
I checked with a couple of my colleagues (fellow Biologists, but they are professionally more closely involved with aquatic species than I) and they pointed me to a few images of the hybrids of which I have attached a couple below.
They seemed to be quite understanding about our little discussion and the possibility for some confusion. They were also both in agreement that my somewhat premature psuedo-positive ID(or almost anyone else’s attempted ID that is not a Fisheries Biologist experienced with those specific species) from a photo alone, would be highly subject to speculation. As a scientist myself, I would also have to agree - inspite of the fact that I did try to shoot from the hip and do it. And, as you’ve probably noticed, upon that realization, I also edited my post and attempted an almost immediate and hasty retraction of said identification. It could be called scientific self skepticism. Or, as I like to look at it - it’s the process of refusing to believe what I think. In others words; when there was some doubt about the accuracy of my first shot, I went ahead and emptied my clip in that direction.
Anyway, Both of my associates seemed to be under the impression that if the two species were present in the body of water in question, and had been there for a long time, that the existance of hybrids would almost be a certainty, and the possiblity of those hybrids reproducing was also quite probable.
In the hybrid bluegill/sunfish there is about a 90% male ratio so it is not too likely that full scale hybridization would occur, but more likely that specific characteristics could become predominant due to environmental, individual reproductive opportunity, and oddly enough, luck. Like color for example, or some other physical trait.
The offspring will inherit characteristics from both parents, but not so predictably as to the point of being able to come up with an exact standard for them - probably due to the great variations possible within the two parent species. There is also the potential that the hybrid, being viable itself, could lend characteristic traits back to both species’ parental gene pools, thereby influencing the original species themselves. An interesting circular causality kind of catch 22 from my perspective.
One example extended to me was this analogy. The Sunfish hybrid is more like the Saugeye than the Wiper when it comes to comparing the offspring to the parent. I understood it more or less, as I can more easily differentiate a Wiper from a Striper or White bass, than I can a Saugeye from a Sauger or a Walleye when they are all the same size. However, I have to admit that it would probably make much more sense to the professional in aquaculture or marine biology who extended it to me, than it does to me as a biologist who just fishes. Nevertheless, I suspect that a clearer understanding of that information would not make the fillets of the fish any less tasty.
After my conversations with them, I emailed the photo of your fish(both the pre and post doctored ones) to them for review. However, I did that prior to seeing your last suite of CSI pictures. I have not heard back from either yet, but I am quite sure that I will as soon as they can do so - we suffered through the University experience together, and do keep in fairly regular contact.
Anyway…Here are a couple the ones I got refered to as official images of the hybrids.
This is one from the University of Arkansas.
[inline hybridbream.jpg]
This is from Langston.
[inline hybridbluegill.jpg]
Bottom line for me so far - there seems to be a good deal of potential variation within both species and the hybrids of them. And, since there could be some confusion, I will wait for a legitimate professional to tell me the intricate potential genetic technicalities, or the facinating geneaological details of possible panfish infidelity in our beloved waters.
The original pic is of a green sunfish; it has a mouth that is relatively large and the upper jaw extends back to the middle of the eye. If you look at the original picture, and look at how far the jaw line extends back towards the eye and compare that to the bluegill pictures, you can see a major difference. The jaw line is evidence of a larger mouth and a fish that is not a bluegill.
Neto’s looks to be of a bluegill…the mouth is too small to be a green sunfish.
W&B,
Are you identifying Coldfooters original pic? Or NETO’s subsequent addition? I have attached pic’s of both fish in question.
Slayer
whoops…my bad. The original pic is a green sunfish. Neto’s fish is a bluegill. I don’t even think it looks much like a hybrid (but possible).
Last night when I was in the kitchen taking the photos of such a seemingly insignificant little fish, my wife asked me what I was doing. She wondered why I was taking pictures of such a little fish. She has seen me and assisted me many times taking pictures of big fish, but she has never seen me even spend the time to take pictures of any of the little fish that I have caught.
I told her that I had posted a single picture of that fish on the board and that a bunch of us were trying to determine for sure what kind of fish it really was.
She (like some others have mentioned already!) couldn’t believe that I was spending so much time and effort on such an insignificant topic. Of course, she thinks I take this sport way too seriously anyway and has learned not to ask how much money I just spent whenever I bring home any new equipment!
All I can say is, I think this is fun! This has been a most interesting subject and I couldn’t wait to get to work this morning and catch up on this post! I don’t think there is anywhere else that a pool of such educated (and opinionistic) people would participate in such a seemingly insignificant problem!
From the posts and pm’s I’ve recieved, as well as the opinions of my fellow office workers, the vote still really is about 50/50.
I haven’t changed my 2007 Fishing Ledger yet. It still says “Green Sunfish”. However, I did put an asterick (*) next to it for now…
Thanks everyone for the fun and entertainment…!
Don, sorry about hijacking your post…feel free to hijack one of mine one day!
Randy
Nice detail pictures NETO. Yours is a bluegill. Shape of the body, hint of a dark (shaded) spot at the back of the dorsal fin, small mouth, pointed pectoral fin, black opercular lobe with no light margin, yada, yada.