10-23-2009, 05:13 PM
As I read this thread, several things come to mind. But let me play devil's advocate for a few minutes as in my job, this is what I do everyday.
A person wants a boat. Not sure which one so he/she searches online. Lots of good and lots of bad info out here. However human nature dictates there will be more bad than good. Why? Simple. If we like it, we USE it. Less time bitching and moaning about how bad it is. Look around online. The majority of glowing reviews come from one of three driving causes. First, someone really, honestly likes what they have purchased or reviewed. Second and more commonly, they are in a position which requires a certain amount of product reviews/endorsements over a certain time period. (that's business). Third, someone wants to get their name published on the web. Not saying these are the ONLY reasons, just the three main, driving causes. Then there is this type of format, online forums. Hopefully we can garner a good opinion via unbiased experience. But seldom is that the case because staying unbiased is difficult at best. Refer back to the earlier statement (we like it, we USE it).
The bottom line is that of the boats on the market, Scadden makes good boats. Does he personally Make the entire boat? Nope. Don't think so. But he doesn't need to either. If USA or Asian doesn't matter to you, then buy whatever you like.
Aluminum versus steel. Corrosion. They both WILL corrode. Steel quicker (at least more visibly evident). Powder coated helps but doesn't prevent rust. One nick from a rock, truck bed, drunk buddy falling and scrapping cleats on it and there's an opening for rust. Will that matter today? NO. Will it make a difference in 3-10 years? Most likely. Will steel versus aluminum matter if you're stupid and broach/pin/wrap your boat around a big downstream boulder? NO!!! They will both be destroyed.
Bladder vs Bladderless. Ask Dave and he says Bladderless. From a whitewater perspective, I see both good and bad. Rock tears tube AND bladder, you can most likely duct tape the outer tube and it will hold air. If you were smart enough to carry duct tape (kayaker's best friend). Dave's argument is the rock/knife/whatever is going to cut the outside tube, it most likely will cut through both tube and bladder so you have two holes to patch. He can patch a bladderless design in 20 minutes and you're back on the water.
Ask yourself what you want to use the boat for. Fishing? Great choice. Whitewater? Great choice. Class V+ Whitewater? Not so sure. If you are doing that, you need a bigger boat unless you are very good oarsman or in my case, you have almost 20 years of whitewater experience (mine is in kayaks) so I'm comfortable in tough whitewater situations. Not sure what I'm talking about? Youtube, North Fork of the Payette. 16' boats are minimum.
Bad taste from paste experience? Come on guys. We are talking about buying boats, not taking business advice from someone. Does it really matter that the phone wasn't answered? NO. Call me back. Does that effect my boat? NO! "I knew him back in the day" That's nice but it doesn't matter in regards to the boat.
Bottom line. We are a bunch of cheap ass bastards. Particularly from the kayaker point of view. We re-engineer almost everything we do. We started tying flies because it seemed cheaper (huge mistake). We don't buy stripping baskets or nets but instead use the top of a tupperware container. We won't buy a frame but instead make it ourselves. Most of us will make this purchase once, maybe twice. Make me a good boat that I can fish out of and run whitewater and still take it home to run again. Don't answer the phone. Doesn't matter. You know I will only make the purchase once or twice in my lifetime so who cares if you don't answer the phone?
If on the other hand you want to promise you will buy a new boat, twice per year for the next 10 years, I'm positive someone will promise to answer the phone on the first ring, as long as your caller id shows up!
I'm done for now.
John Legg
[signature]
A person wants a boat. Not sure which one so he/she searches online. Lots of good and lots of bad info out here. However human nature dictates there will be more bad than good. Why? Simple. If we like it, we USE it. Less time bitching and moaning about how bad it is. Look around online. The majority of glowing reviews come from one of three driving causes. First, someone really, honestly likes what they have purchased or reviewed. Second and more commonly, they are in a position which requires a certain amount of product reviews/endorsements over a certain time period. (that's business). Third, someone wants to get their name published on the web. Not saying these are the ONLY reasons, just the three main, driving causes. Then there is this type of format, online forums. Hopefully we can garner a good opinion via unbiased experience. But seldom is that the case because staying unbiased is difficult at best. Refer back to the earlier statement (we like it, we USE it).
The bottom line is that of the boats on the market, Scadden makes good boats. Does he personally Make the entire boat? Nope. Don't think so. But he doesn't need to either. If USA or Asian doesn't matter to you, then buy whatever you like.
Aluminum versus steel. Corrosion. They both WILL corrode. Steel quicker (at least more visibly evident). Powder coated helps but doesn't prevent rust. One nick from a rock, truck bed, drunk buddy falling and scrapping cleats on it and there's an opening for rust. Will that matter today? NO. Will it make a difference in 3-10 years? Most likely. Will steel versus aluminum matter if you're stupid and broach/pin/wrap your boat around a big downstream boulder? NO!!! They will both be destroyed.
Bladder vs Bladderless. Ask Dave and he says Bladderless. From a whitewater perspective, I see both good and bad. Rock tears tube AND bladder, you can most likely duct tape the outer tube and it will hold air. If you were smart enough to carry duct tape (kayaker's best friend). Dave's argument is the rock/knife/whatever is going to cut the outside tube, it most likely will cut through both tube and bladder so you have two holes to patch. He can patch a bladderless design in 20 minutes and you're back on the water.
Ask yourself what you want to use the boat for. Fishing? Great choice. Whitewater? Great choice. Class V+ Whitewater? Not so sure. If you are doing that, you need a bigger boat unless you are very good oarsman or in my case, you have almost 20 years of whitewater experience (mine is in kayaks) so I'm comfortable in tough whitewater situations. Not sure what I'm talking about? Youtube, North Fork of the Payette. 16' boats are minimum.
Bad taste from paste experience? Come on guys. We are talking about buying boats, not taking business advice from someone. Does it really matter that the phone wasn't answered? NO. Call me back. Does that effect my boat? NO! "I knew him back in the day" That's nice but it doesn't matter in regards to the boat.
Bottom line. We are a bunch of cheap ass bastards. Particularly from the kayaker point of view. We re-engineer almost everything we do. We started tying flies because it seemed cheaper (huge mistake). We don't buy stripping baskets or nets but instead use the top of a tupperware container. We won't buy a frame but instead make it ourselves. Most of us will make this purchase once, maybe twice. Make me a good boat that I can fish out of and run whitewater and still take it home to run again. Don't answer the phone. Doesn't matter. You know I will only make the purchase once or twice in my lifetime so who cares if you don't answer the phone?
If on the other hand you want to promise you will buy a new boat, twice per year for the next 10 years, I'm positive someone will promise to answer the phone on the first ring, as long as your caller id shows up!
I'm done for now.
John Legg
[signature]