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The new Outlaw series uses a nonstandard filler valve made by BRAVO in Italy. It is a nice enough valve in operation, but parts are a real problem, since few people use these valves other than NFO, near as I can tell.
On my boat I managed to pull one of the valve cap retainer strings (hereafter known as VCRS) out of one of the forward valve bodies while I was unpacking the boat for the first time. Scadden was no help at all in getting the problem taken care of, he told me to use a fly tying bobbin threader to snake the string back through the hole in the body valve.
Problem is, the body valve is screwed down so tight against the tube material that you can't get anything even as small as a bobbin threader through there. The valve body has to be unscrewed, then you can re-thread the string and retighten the valve body.
There are lots of tools around to disassemble the standard Halkey-Roberts and Summit valves that look so similar, but when I asked NFO they said the sizing on the Bravo valves is different enough that the production tools won't work... so NFO makes their own. I ordered one from them for five bucks, and although it does fit the valve (I haven't yet tried to unscrew it), it looks like someone took a short length of PVC and took it out to the back porch and whittled it down while sucking on a corncob pipe.
This is the tool:
![[Image: 819223455_6fFyZ-L.jpg]](http://michaelnel.smugmug.com/Boats/2010-03-06-outlaw-details/valvetool/819223455_6fFyZ-L.jpg)
These are the valve caps with string attached:
![[Image: 819209808_9jxpA-L.jpg]](http://michaelnel.smugmug.com/Boats/2010-03-06-outlaw-details/valvecap2/819209808_9jxpA-L.jpg)
![[Image: 819209838_C2cfx-L.jpg]](http://michaelnel.smugmug.com/Boats/2010-03-06-outlaw-details/valvecap1/819209838_C2cfx-L.jpg)
It takes very little force to pull the VCRS free. It is held in place by a single overhead knot with no tag end, so tug and the knot comes untiled, and the cap is no longer teathered. If you take a string and tie a single overhand knot in it and tighten it well, the protruding tag end will make the knot withstand a large amount of force before coming untied. But if you cut the tag end off close to the knot it will take very little force to untie, and that is the case here. In one of the pics above you can see that the knot is tied, then pulled up into a recess in the cap, and then the tag end is cut off.
You can also see on the other end that the knot has come untied. This has now happened on three of my five valves, and I have managed to lose two of the caps as a result.
I wrote to NFO three times about this explaining the problem and asking for replacement valve caps and strings, as I really can't use the boat without them. I further stated I believe this is a design / workmanship defect because of the way the knot is trimmed.
I have had zero response from NFO. I am pretty sick of dealing with them at this point, they really don't seem to care at all about QA or customer service. Anyone know of an actual company that has Customer Service and can supply parts that can supply these valve caps? NRS and the other big suppliers don't have anything.
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From all U have been through this palce sounds like a place that I could do without!!! I ordered my classic colorado from swingsets and more.com and was real nervous about it until it got here. At the time of arrival it had a broken (1) valve cover cap, and a rip in the seat cover.. I called their customer service to report the problem and was told that they would take care of it no problem> I'm thinking yea right> well come too find out in about a week I received a complete new seat and two complete new valves.... shocked me. they have also been a real help in getting me the doucments needed too register this thing,, I guess what I,m saying is there are a few companies that still belive in customer service.. good luck in your search for parts
wedge
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And I bet there has been ONE unhappy person with the company you went with[  ]
Honest to god, I swear, Michael is going through stuff I have never heard of or anyone else that owns NFO which is allot of people.
Not saying it isn't happening, but it is rare, just like ANY company.
I have the Halkey Roberts valves....never seen those before. I bought my boat last year so it is new and it is the bladderless.
Maybe yours is different being the frameless, but again, I have never seen or heard of that valve.
I called Dave Monday about licensing my boat, by Wed I had all the paper work in the mail I needed. So, again, a rare case as my service has always been prompt and top notch.
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[quote flygoddess]I have the Halkey Roberts valves....never seen those before. I bought my boat last year so it is new and it is the bladderless.
Maybe yours is different being the frameless, but again, I have never seen or heard of that valve.[/quote]
Dunno what your knowledge of this valve has do do with the problems I am having, but when I talked with Dave at the Pleasanton FF show he said these are the latest and greatest and that he no longer uses the HK valves, and these BRAVOs are on all the new boats. He was the one that showed me the "toggle" nature of the valve (one push open, one push closed).
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[quote flygoddess]And I bet there has been ONE unhappy person with the company you went with[/quote]
It's the single worst purchasing decision of my life, and at 60 years old I have bought a lot of stuff from a lot of companies. NFO is the worst, by far.
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That's pretty evident. Rightfully so.
My knowledge doesn't mean jack, I understand that. Thanks for the report of the new valves. I am not much younger so I guess I am lucky.
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Sounds like a pretty bad buying experience Michael.
I just bought a Renegade last weekend from Dave. Thanks for the heads-up on the "new" valves. He told me the same thing, that he wasn't using the Halkey valves any more. I'm awaiting my new ride to be delivered now.
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Best of luck to you Jim, I hope everything about your dealings with NFO works out perfectly!
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Hey, maybe if you claim to be close relation to FG, might flag Dave's attention to bear on the issue....[ ]
Pon
[quote michaelnel][quote flygoddess]And I bet there has been ONE unhappy person with the company you went with[/quote]
It's the single worst purchasing decision of my life, and at 60 years old I have bought a lot of stuff from a lot of companies. NFO is the worst, by far.[/quote]
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I am sure there has been more than (1) unhappy customer with this company. No matter what company U deal with I am sure they have made someone mad,,,,, I was just saying that it was my time too be pleased with someones cust. service dept. sounds like Michael is a long way from being a happy tuber.
wedge
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Sad but true...Sorry for the headache Michael.
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Wedge, I'm glad to hear you had a positive experience with Classic. I just recieved a Rogue SP and one of the valve cover caps was broken. I sent them an e-mail regarding the damaged part and also asked if I can order individual parts. We'll see what happens.
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good luck hope it works out for ya.
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any luck with replacment parts?????
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[quote wedge17.6]any luck with replacment parts?????[/quote]
None. NFO has not responded at all to six emails sent over the course of 14 days, including my offer to PAY for the caps. It appears they have decided to simply stonewall me and refuse to provide the parts.
I don't know what to do. The boat is unusable and unsalable. I cannot understand a company behaving as NFO is doing.
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[cool][#0000ff]Sorry to read of your frustration. Contrary to what others on this board might have you believe, that is not unheard of with after sale service from this company. I have heard of several other unhappy NFO campers and had an issue myself. In fairness, it was taken care of, but was very minor compared to your problems. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]On one side of the coin they strive for the highest quality and newest ideas in their products. The downside of that is not being able to anticipate problems and have the necessary people and components on hand to keep the customers happy when there is a problem. Dave has always been more about selling than servicing. He is happiest when he is at shows...showing off...and hardest to find when somebody wants some help. Much better at lip service than customer service. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Then there is the matter of discontinuing a line just as it is catching on and leaving unhappy owners with equipment for which there is no aftermarket replacement or upgrades.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]The only recommendation I can offer is to reverse the charges on your credit card...if that is how you paid...and let NFO be responsible for issuing a pick up order for the unusable gear. That might get their attention.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Good luck.[/#0000ff]
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[quote TubeDude][cool] [#0000ff]Sorry to read of your frustration. Contrary to what others on this board might have you believe, that is not unheard of with after sale service from this company. I have heard of several other unhappy NFO campers and had an issue myself. In fairness, it was taken care of, but was very minor compared to your problems. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff][/quote]
I too have heard of lots of people getting screwed by NFO. That was why I agonized over the decision to buy, but the boat itself and its features are so cool that I succumbed, and bought against my better judgement. Where there is as much smoke as there is around NFO and customer service, you can pretty much bet there is a fire somewhere.
Quote:[#0000ff]Dave has always been more about selling than servicing. He is happiest when he is at shows...showing off...and hardest to find when somebody wants some help. Much better at lip service than customer service. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
Man, ain't that the truth!
Quote:[#0000ff]Then there is the matter of discontinuing a line just as it is catching on and leaving unhappy owners with equipment for which there is no aftermarket replacement or upgrades.[/#0000ff]
I have heard of that too, especially in reference to the fly rods he used to make. That's why a "Lifetime Warranty" is so meaningless from a Scadden company. You have a warranty as long as Dave decides to honor it. If that is only a couple weeks, tough, you're screwed.
Quote:[#0000ff]The only recommendation I can offer is to reverse the charges on your credit card...if that is how you paid...and let NFO be responsible for issuing a pick up order for the unusable gear. That might get their attention.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Good luck.[/#0000ff]
Unfortunately, I paid with a debit card so that is not an option. I would think that Dave would tell his guys "Send the a$$hole the parts, if only to shut him up!".
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why is it that anything bitching about scadden boats and customer service is left on this forum to read yet a members comments basically saying there aint a darn thing anyone her on this forum can do to help and that to get things done means you got to keep after the company in question is deleted??
everyone here is reading only what michael has to say about his problems and his interpretations of how he is being treated and that is only one side of the story.. we have no idea what Scadden has or has not replied to michael because we are only hearing his condensed version of what is said..
when is this jump on the bandwagon attitude of dumping on the pile of crap when it comes to certain companies??? to me that is not being very conducive to an open forum ..
just my .02..
MacFly
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[cool][#0000ff]We are all entitled to our own opinions. And we are allowed to express them. What is NOT allowed are personal attacks. Whenever negative comments are directed at a member they will be edited.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Just for the record, this is not one of the elitist fly fishing forums where everybody is allowed unlimited leeway to tear others down and make personal attacks.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Michael's ongoing saga of frustration and poor service is very real to him...and has also been experienced by others. Some of us are just trying to offer moral support rather than beating him down for making a dumb decision...while supporting the company that has created his problem.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It is very clear where the alliances are on this board.[/#0000ff]
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BTW, I did see the particular deleted post before it was deleted, but it was so rude and nasty I decided not to dignify it with a response. That person has laid into me with personal attacks before, and there would be nothing to gain from a battle with him.
Next time I logged in it was gone. I figured it had been deleted by another moderator, but I certainly had nothing to do with it being deleted. I didn't complain about it, I simply ignored it.
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